D4E and D3B Opinons (purchase)

[GManBart]

I've been having zero luck finding a decent dozer on Craigslist...the last three I wanted to look at were sold within a day, and I didn't even get to look at them. So, I've expanded my search a bit and found two I may be interested in looking at, and thought I'd get some input here.

For background, I only have 20 acres, but my projects are going to be spread out over the next year or so, and some will happen in stages, so renting is out of the question. Examples of projects are a pile of about 3,000 cubic yards I need to move/grade to raise up a low spot where I knocked down a house (we bought several adjacent properties and knocked down the houses). Then I have about 2,000ft of fence line to cut through light trees (2-3" max) along the perimeter of our property. I'm also going to make a shooting berm for a pistol bay (50yds deep, with side berms)...probably 10ft high at least. In short, nothing huge, no ponds to dig, no big trees to push down (I'll cut them down and dig the stumps out with my backhoe). I'm a weekend warrior....a couple of hours here, a couple of hours there, so I'm not trying to make money at this.

I thought I wanted something in the size of a D3, but I've read so many mixed comments about the earlier models with dry clutches/brakes and pedal steering (in general) I'm not sure if I should drive the 2.5hrs to go look at this one. It was repainted, which always makes me wonder, but the UC looks good in the pictures, and at least this way you can see leaks, etc. The dealer said the hour meter doesn't work (go figure) but he estimates that it's got probably 5,000 hours on it going off other wear. Aside from the UC and checking for excessive blow by (typical 3204 problem) are there any things I should really look out for?

http://www.wmtractor.com/landing.ht...ist.aspx?ETID=1&pcid=2937441&dlr=1&catid=1025

The first link doesn't want to take you to the exact machine, but they only have one D3b listed. This might work better:

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11671125/1983-cat-d3b

I hadn't planned on looking at anything quite as big as this D4E, but it seems like a lot of people are a fan of them, and parts are readily available. I have no idea what the seller means by "average undercarriage" but it's only about an hour from me, so it won't hurt to take a look. Aside from not being able to tell much about the UC from the pictures, it looks like there might be leaks around several of the cylinders/pistons, and I'm not sure what's going on with the cutting edge...almost looks like it's not even there, right? Anything to pay extra attention to on this? I've read that finals are the weak point, but I can't imagine an easy way to really inspect them on the lot. The good thing is it's pretty inexpensive, and they might have some wiggle room built in. Thoughts?

http://www.petersequipment.net/pre_owned_detail.asp?veh=4240689

 

[Welder Dave]

There's nothing wrong with the dry steering clutches in a D3B. Some people prefer the dry brakes. The biggest thing is to keep water out of them. The rollers on the steering clutch valves can get flat spots that don't let them fully open. I think it would be worthwhile to take a look and see how it operates. A 6 way blade would be a bonus.

 

[caterpillar13]

stay away from that d4e, the under carriage is beyond gone..
as for the wet spots on the cylinders not bad..
the bottom of the blade is wore so bad that it needs to be rebuilt..
if they give it to you then you could make it pay .......

 

[Willie B]

stay away from that d4e, the under carriage is beyond gone..
as for the wet spots on the cylinders not bad..
the bottom of the blade is wore so bad that it needs to be rebuilt..
if they give it to you then you could make it pay .......

I bought a utility tractor with loader, and hog. It had 1100 hours on it. I had known the tractor since new. Bought after a local gentleman farmer died, his farm, a real showplace was converted to a bed & breakfast. The property changed hands a few times over 30 years. All of the owners were the hire it done type. The loader bucket had original paint on the cutting edge. The bottom of the bucket had 30 year old paint!

On the way home with it on the trailer my son called a friend. His friend said;"You do realize it's been in the pond?" Sure enough, although the hydraulic / transmission oil dipstick was clean, the bottom of the system was water. I cancelled the check, and contacted the seller. I gave her the choice of me returning the tractor, or writing a new, much smaller check. It got heated, but ultimately we agreed on $3000. This gave me $2000 to repair. The engine was clean, I don't think it was deep enough to get into it. With repeated fluid changes it was clean, but wet brakes froze in winter. The professional who tore it down, replacing numerous parts cost $3500.

By now I've got $7500 invested in it. It was a lot of anguish. Had I seen the future, I'd have passed on the purchase.

The moral of my lengthy story is it's too easy to buy something that needs work, and have an ornament, or spend a fortune rehabbing it. Look for a good tractor. Worry less about the purchase price, more about what rehab will cost. Pay the best equipment mechanic you can find whatever he charges to go to it and thoroughly inspect it before you buy.

 

[wilko]

Since you're not needing to move it around once you get it home, give some serious thought to getting a bigger machine. There's less demand for big iron, 977 loaders sell astonishingly cheap sometimes and nice old D6 and D7 size go pretty cheap too. For the jobs you're talking about the bigger machine would work great.

 

[GManBart]

Since you're not needing to move it around once you get it home, give some serious thought to getting a bigger machine. There's less demand for big iron, 977 loaders sell astonishingly cheap sometimes and nice old D6 and D7 size go pretty cheap too. For the jobs you're talking about the bigger machine would work great.

I don't have to move it around, but I do have a SA dump truck and could borrow my neighbor's trailer if I ever wanted/needed to move it, so I'd probably shy away from anything that large...well that and I'm pretty much out of space in the barn! Still, I've kept my eye open for everything in the D5-7 range within a reasonable distance, and haven't seen anything that would fit the bill. Also, for some of the finishing work I plan to do a 6-way blade would be really handy (especially because I'm a novice!).

 

[GManBart]

Okay, so the D4C is out. There's a reasonably decent looking Dresser TD8H just a few miles from where the D3b is...could look at both on the same day.

http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...8h?dlr=1&pcid=2853122&sfc=0&ssc=0&src=0&ftr=0

 

[Willie B]

The Dresser looks good. I have a TD7G it is a great tractor. The bigger, newer td8h is better still. How will you move it, or will you?

 

[GManBart]

The Dresser looks good. I have a TD7G it is a great tractor. The bigger, newer td8h is better still. How will you move it, or will you?

That reminds me...I missed out on a TD7G as well. The closest dealer, of any kind, to me had it on the lot when I stopped by to get some HyTran Ultra for my backhoe. It was in decent shape, but the paint was really poor, and they were only asking $8,500. I asked about it, which seemed to surprise the sales guy "oh, I think everything works, we've used it a few times" and a few days later it popped up on an equipment listing site, and it was gone a few days later. I think my asking about it might have been what got them thinking...oh well.

I don't have plans to move the dozer, but I do have a small dump truck, and I can probably borrow a trailer from my neighbor if I really have to.

Have you needed any/many parts for your dozer? It seems like parts aren't terribly hard to find for the newer Dressers, but the older you get, the harder it becomes...at least what I've read made me think that.

 

[Willie B]

That reminds me...I missed out on a TD7G as well. The closest dealer, of any kind, to me had it on the lot when I stopped by to get some HyTran Ultra for my backhoe. It was in decent shape, but the paint was really poor, and they were only asking $8,500. I asked about it, which seemed to surprise the sales guy "oh, I think everything works, we've used it a few times" and a few days later it popped up on an equipment listing site, and it was gone a few days later. I think my asking about it might have been what got them thinking...oh well.

I don't have plans to move the dozer, but I do have a small dump truck, and I can probably borrow a trailer from my neighbor if I really have to.

Have you needed any/many parts for your dozer? It seems like parts aren't terribly hard to find for the newer Dressers, but the older you get, the harder it becomes...at least what I've read made me think that.

No trouble at all. Locally, Winmill Equipment in Rutland VT has been exceptional at getting parts. Reggie is great at advice too. I had some issues with somebody putting oversize tracks on mine. They scuffed the blade angle cylinders. The problem was elusive. He really came through with working through the issue. Most new parts are coming from Komatsu. The engines are Cummins. The same engine is used in thousands of applications. My Case Backhoe has the same engine. Undercarriage parts are from a variety of sources. It seems undercarriage is an industry in itself.

There's no such thing as too big a tractor. Too small a tow vehicle is a concern.

 

[GManBart]

No trouble at all. Locally, Winmill Equipment in Rutland VT has been exceptional at getting parts. Reggie is great at advice too. I had some issues with somebody putting oversize tracks on mine. They scuffed the blade angle cylinders. The problem was elusive. He really came through with working through the issue. Most new parts are coming from Komatsu. The engines are Cummins. The same engine is used in thousands of applications. My Case Backhoe has the same engine. Undercarriage parts are from a variety of sources. It seems undercarriage is an industry in itself.

There's no such thing as too big a tractor. Too small a tow vehicle is a concern.

That's good to hear, and sounds like what I've seen other folks say about getting parts for G model and newer Dressers. The Cummins engine is probably the biggest plus to me...as you said, they are everywhere, and there's no chance that parts will be a serious problem in our lifetime.

I'm already looking at eventually upgrading my tow vehicle so I don't have to worry about how much my machines weigh...my backhoe is 18K pounds, and I really wouldn't want to pull it behind my little F800 with only 170hp (it's mostly just a site truck).

 

[Willie B]

I tow the 16800 LB Case 580K behind a Chevrolet C65 27500 Gross equipped with a 427 Chevy truck engine. These are remarkable engines, incredibly torquey but woefully inadequate for the task. Geared low enough, it pulls OK but often traffic backs up behind me. The fact that everywhere one might go in VT is uphill both ways isn't helping.

Reality is it's downhill half the time. For me stopping, & slowing is more important than going. Two trips a year are the real test. We sponsor an antique tractor pull. The boat & blocks are borrowed from 40 miles from home. I go get them & return them. Truck, trailer, & load total 56000 LBS! Air brakes, and very low gearing downhill serve me well.

 

[GManBart]

Well, I looked at the CAT D3B yesterday, and it's being delivered next week!

I checked it over pretty well before the mechanic even came out to give me the keys, and then ran it for a full hour pushing dirt. One thing I liked was that the mechanic asked if I need any help, started the engine, got back on his UTV and said "have fun" and rode away. They didn't check up on me, and let me run it as long as I wanted. In fact, the sales guy said something like "there's a big dirt pile out back, go run it around and make sure it gets all warmed up" so I don't think they're trying to hide anything.

It started easily (I checked and it was dead cold when I got there), ran very smoothly, and didn't smoke. Once up to temperature it had some blow by through the breather, but it wasn't excessive, and that engine is known for having some blow by even when fairly new (only has two rings on the piston). When I ran it into the big pile of dirt it would easily spin both tracks without a problem and it had no trouble pushing a full blade. The steering was good in both directions, the brakes would lock up the tracks easily, and the transmission was solid in all three gears. I didn't find any cracks or welds in the frame, etc, and the hydraulics were all good with the exception of a leaking fitting that they're going to replace (it started leaking while I was running it). After an hour I shut it down, and restarted it hot...no problem. I then went around again looking for leaks/problems, and only found the small leak on one of the blade hoses.

I got them down to the number I had in mind when I got there, and almost got free delivery until they found out it was 180 miles to my place! I've talked with a couple of local equipment haulers, and they quoted me $400-500 for a similar distance. The dealer agreed to split it, so I'm paying $250 to get it hauled here. The sales guy twice mentioned that before they deliver a machine they put it in the shop and go through it from top to bottom....check all the fluids again, make sure the clutches and brakes are adjusted properly etc...he was pretty adamant that they try to deliver machines that are really ready to go to work. I guess I'll find out soon enough!

I was a little worried about a machine that had been repainted, but I looked pretty carefully and couldn't find any evidence of abuse or damage that was being hidden. The inside of the engine compartment, the inside of the battery compartment, the underbelly, etc all just showed seriously faded paint, and light surface rust...nothing worse than that. The engine compartment was dry as a bone, no signs of leaking around the finals, or anywhere else other than the fitting on the C frame.

One thing interesting gave me a bit more confidence when buying this was something I noticed off Machinery Trader. This dealer has sold a couple of dozers to a local dealer who raises the price a couple of thousand dollars. The one that caught my attention was a Deere 450E that had a decent UC on it with some new parts (much like mine) and a fresh paint job that was done pretty well (like mine). My dealer was asking right at $19K and the local dealer has it listed for something like $22K.

Anyway, I'll post pics when it gets delivered, but here's one of the pics from the original listing:

 

[Willie B]

A ten year old car in the north with fresh paint is something to be suspicious of. All new paint on a tractor says is it is for sale. Buyers with wives are allowed to buy freshly painted tractors. Buyers without wives are willing to pay more for newly painted tractors. Three months from now you'll be better qualified to buy. Now you are a student. I pay an expert to look before I buy. A good machine will have some bugs to work out. A bad machine will bury you in repairs.

 

[GManBart]

A ten year old car in the north with fresh paint is something to be suspicious of. All new paint on a tractor says is it is for sale. Buyers with wives are allowed to buy freshly painted tractors. Buyers without wives are willing to pay more for newly painted tractors. Three months from now you'll be better qualified to buy. Now you are a student. I pay an expert to look before I buy. A good machine will have some bugs to work out. A bad machine will bury you in repairs.

Can't argue with most of that! I know my wife wouldn't be happy if I brought home an old, scruffy looking machine...lol. I should point out that I've had a dozer before...spent a bit of time wrenching on that one. I also have a very experienced operator/mechanic neighbor who showed me what to look for (bought my first dozer from him), so I hope I wasn't completely blind when I made this choice

Part of my planning involved spending enough, but leaving some cash in reserve for those bugs that might pop up...enough that I could probably rebuild the engine, tranny, or replace the tracks if I really had to.

 

[Willie B]

Healthy attitude, I hope it proves only moderately bugged. Only new ones are perfect, they aren't, but warranties make them so. You've got a great dozer, enjoy.

 

[Welder Dave]

Looks like a good machine. Does it have the 3F/3R transmission or the 3F/1R trans? My 931B has the 3F/1R and when the engine and trans were out, they checked the screen for the trans. They said it was a good sign that there were no black flecks in it. The black flecks would be signs of the clutches in the trans going. The 3F/3R has a filter that could be cut open and checked. Cat generally has good transmissions and they even advertise it in the brochures for these machines. One thing I was told with a 3204 is not to let it idle for long periods as it will wet stack and a worse case is it will prevent the engine from revving up. The shop said some of the new engines can idle all day long with no problems but it's bad for a 3204.

 

[GManBart]

Looks like a good machine. Does it have the 3F/3R transmission or the 3F/1R trans? My 931B has the 3F/1R and when the engine and trans were out, they checked the screen for the trans. They said it was a good sign that there were no black flecks in it. The black flecks would be signs of the clutches in the trans going. The 3F/3R has a filter that could be cut open and checked. Cat generally has good transmissions and they even advertise it in the brochures for these machines. One thing I was told with a 3204 is not to let it idle for long periods as it will wet stack and a worse case is it will prevent the engine from revving up. The shop said some of the new engines can idle all day long with no problems but it's bad for a 3204.

It has the 3F/3F transmission. I hadn't heard about the wet stacking issue with the 3204, but I don't expect that'll be a problem for me. I'm generally a weekend warrior and normally only have a few hours at a time, so when I fire up a machine, it's working the whole time. It's probably overkill, but I try not to start any of my machines if I'm not going to actually use them enough to get up to temperature....I tend to wait until I have enough stuff to do before I pull one out of the barn. Now I just need to hope the ground dries up a little bit around here so I can get some dirt moved!

 

[Welder Dave]

The shop that did my engine said 3204's were bad for wet stacking but newer Cat engines could idle all day long with no ill effects. Maybe the 2 ring pistons have something to do with it? Mine was rebuilt with IPD 3 ring pistons which give a little more compression and H.P. It sure starts easy. Letting them warm up for a few minutes or longer in cold weather is OK.

 

[GManBart]

The shop that did my engine said 3204's were bad for wet stacking but newer Cat engines could idle all day long with no ill effects. Maybe the 2 ring pistons have something to do with it? Mine was rebuilt with IPD 3 ring pistons which give a little more compression and H.P. It sure starts easy. Letting them warm up for a few minutes or longer in cold weather is OK.

That makes sense. If things go sideways and I wind up having to do work on the engine I'd definitely plan to go with 3 ring pistons.