D3B with Cat 3204 Engine. (Newbie alert!)

[lizrad999]

Good afternoon folks!
I recently picked up a Cat D3B dozer that was running poorly and smoking ALOT. I was told it sat a while and had bad injectors....nope.
I pulled the valve cover off since I am not familiar with these engines to determine injector type, and found two intake push rods bent and not touching rocker arms. Go figure. The associated valves were quite stuck. Luckily I only ran it long enough to load and unload it. Not to say that the folks that "rescued" it from the estate it came from didn't do worse.
Yesterday I pulled the head and managed to remove the stuck valves. One of the valves was galled to what I originally thought was a valve guide, and the guide came out. Upon examination of the CAT parts diagram, and subsequent review of the other valve location, I have come to the conclusion that the 45V28529 engine did not have valve guides.
I also noticed the push rods appeared to be two different styles. Needless to say I am not the first person into the top of this engine, and for what I can only assume was also for stuck valves....which they destroyed the OG valve guide machined into the head, and subsequently bored it out and installed a sleeve. <sigh>
I found a pair of heads on FB that are fairly cheap, and need to know if they are interchangeable with the slight differences.
The greasy head is mine, and has 9L9270 cast into it. The head on the dolly is the one I can go get and seems to have 2W71?? cast into it.
I would much rather go back with a "unmolested head" if possible.
Soooo......are these heads interchangeable? Thanks in advance!

 

[lizrad999]

Sorry about all the photos, I'm still learning....

 

[Nige]

Sorry about all the photos, I'm still learning....

Don't apologise. Photos let the dog see the rabbit, so to speak. BTW you are limited to uploading 4 photos per post.

That rusty head in the last photo appears to be a bit of a basket case. What does it look like on the combustion chamber side.? Is the gasket surface corroded.? Are the valves free to move.?

Attached shows what the cylinder head should be for your engine Serial Number (have you confirmed that with the plate on the cylinder block or does it maybe have another completely different engine in it.?)

Also below are all the alternatives listed for the 9N-3111 Cylinder Head Assembly.

9L9270 is an old style head assembly (waaaaay earlier than your engine Serial Number) that was discontinued. See attached SMHS8286. It does indirectly service to the latest 7C2320 Part Number though.

Can you get the full casting number from the other cylinder head.? 2W71xx doesn't really help much. I think it could be 2W7165 but need confirmation.

 

[lizrad999]

That rusty head in the last photo appears to be a bit of a basket case. What does it look like on the combustion chamber side.? Is the gasket surface corroded.? Are the valves free to move.?

I have not had the chance to lay hands on them. There are two of them with the description of rusty and dirty. I can get both for $240 though, so might be worth a gamble?
I did a quick Google on the differences between 9L9270 and 2W1765(assumed 65) but I will ask seller.
AI said the 9L9270 was for a turbo version, mine is N/A.
Where might I find the ID for the engine? There is a tag on the left (if in seat) but it is impossible to read.
Suffice to say, this 9L could be the wrong head for this machine....at least for the engine number.

 

[lizrad999]

I got a bad photo of a casting on the right side of block.
It says Made in Japan
4N100X
-2-


I can pull the filters and clean it a little better if you think it would be useful.

 

[Nige]

4N101 is the correct Part Number for the cylinder block of engine 45V28529.

The attached photo may give you some idea of where to find the engine Serial Number. Sorry for the poor quality but it's the best I could find. It appears to be below a manifold hidden behind pipework.

Don't just go looking for a plate, look for signs of the 2 or 4 rivets where the plate might have been installed. In that area same the Serial Number should also be stamped on the block. Blocks are stamped with S/Nos as they start the assembly process and it is only at the end of the production line that the plate is installed.

 

[lizrad999]

Ok, I found where the Engine tag used to be.....

 

[lizrad999]

I found some images of the 4N100X block online and they are Mitsubishi engines (Made in Japan). I've climbed all over this thing and can not locate a tag. Images online also match the place where my tag used to be. I'll root around that area to see if I can find any stampings.

 

[lizrad999]

Ok, I scrubbed that area with a brush and brake cleaner and can find no numbers in the casting. However, I did gain a little more info about my project.....the tag I had sent earlier (not legible) fell off, and I am now able to see most of it if I hold it in the sun just so.
It says
REMANUFACTURE INFORMATION
Crank Bore is standard
Crankshaft is .020"

Joy....

 

[Nige]

OK, so now we have (somewhat) the full story. That engine could easily be (90+% sure) a Frankenmotor of some shade or other.
UNLESS that is, the Reman plate you found has a Cat logo on it anywhere.

Here's my opinion (*alternatives may be available)

1. The fact that there are two holes in the block for the Serial Number plate rivets (actually called drive screws) but no S/N stamped on the block says to me that the particular block never had a plate. This is because if at some point the rivets had been chopped off to remove a plate their remains would be visible in the holes. The holes in that block are pristine; they have never had rivets driven into them.

2. So best case scenario the block came through the Cat Parts system at some point, or worst case scenario it is aftermarket.

3. TBH I think at this point you should pull the rest of the motor out of the tractor because having found the Reman tag if you don't go through the block, bottom end, rods/pistons (are the pistons OEM.?), camshaft, oil pump, gear train, fuel system, etc, etc, you'll never know what you have before you start to reassemble it. There may be other skeletons lurking.....

 

[Old Magnet]

Ifo I have says 9L9270 & 2W7165 are head casting numbers for 3208 engine.
Not shown as interchangeable with the 3204.

 

[Nige]

Ifo I have says 9L9270 & 2W7165 are head casting numbers for 3208 engine.
Not shown as interchangeable with the 3204.

6N2467 Cylinder Head Gp for 45V-prefix 3204 attached- which TBH we are not sure now is what's actually in the tractor. Cylinder head Gp called out is 9N-3111.

From the NPR posted above.

9L9270 services to the most recent Part Number - 7C2320.
2W7165 services to 4W3031 or 7C2320.
4W4031 also services to 7C2320.
9N3111 services to 7C2320.

The information is saying they all interchange update to the same Part Number, but from that far back I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

 

[lizrad999]

Tonight I removed the remaining valves from the head I have and cleaned it thoroughly. I have been able to confirm the head does in fact have valve guides. They actually appear to be factory, so I guess I can reinstall the one that came out as it is not damaged. No need for a replacement head.
Nige, when I looked up the engine serial number (per the tag on the machine), it matches up with the 9N3111 head, which if I am reading your earlier post correctly, the 9L9270 head matches the 9N3111, which means the head I have matches the engine serial number? Now, I tend to agree with you on the tag having never been installed, the holes are clean. It's late here, so I will check in the morning, but I am fairly certain the pistons had Cat numbers on them.
From the looks of things, there seems to have been water getting into the intake somehow, which is what caused the valves to seize.
I'm going to take a chance and rebuild the head (with all Cat parts) and reinstall it.

 

[HarleyHappy]

Looking at that one cylinder, it looks as it could use some love.

 

[lizrad999]

I heard back from the fellow on FBM. The heads are 2W7165 and 9N1107....so now it's got me thinking again. Oh, and he has a 1W1587 as well. I think he has 4 heads in total.

 

[lizrad999]

Looking at that one cylinder, it looks as it could use some love.

They are all like that unfortunately...

 

[Nige]

They are all like that unfortunately...

Another reason to bite the bullet, yank the engine, and do a full disassembly. The animal you are dealing with is a complete unknown to both you and all of us here. If you want this thing to operate reliably after repair you really need to know what you are dealing with, IMHO at least. For example I see no point in doing whatever you plan to the head assembly only to later have the bottom end let go.

 

[lizrad999]

Another reason to bite the bullet, yank the engine, and do a full disassembly. The animal you are dealing with is a complete unknown to both you and all of us here. If you want this thing to operate reliably after repair you really need to know what you are dealing with, IMHO at least. For example I see no point in doing whatever you plan to the head assembly only to later have the bottom end let go.

I agree 100% but....I know little else about this machine and need to verify it is truly worth saving. I checked the pistons and it has STD bore Cat pistons and wuz running on two cylinders for load and unload to and from trailer. Obviously it was weak, and when I checked the hydro fluid it was low. I need to make sure the transmission is functioning and the hydraulics are strong before I sink that kind of cash into it the engine. My mantra is to fix it "right" instead of "right now", but I am pretty sure I already paid too much for the thing. If I rebuilt the engine, and then find something afterwards that seals her fate, I am out a bunch of money. Get it running and then once the machine is deemed solid, then exert the effort.
Trust me, I know you are right and you, (Nige) are a legend on the internet. A Caterpillar Guru! Your advice is always on point and solid. I appreciate all of you on here! I might be new to posting, but I've been referencing your threads for years.

Another note, I heard back from my guy on FBM and he has other parts for this machine, so I am going to try and take a ride down there this afternoon!

One more thing, is anyone able to decipher what year this D3B is from the 23Y0807 Serial number?

 

[Nige]

One more thing, is anyone able to decipher what year this D3B is from the 23Y0807 Serial number?

Maybe unlucky for someone.? Built 13th September 1980.

Be aware that all parts and service information is derived from the machine Serial Number, not some nebulous "model/build year"

 

[lizrad999]

Maybe unlucky for someone.? Built 13th September 1980.

Be aware that all parts and service information is derived from the machine Serial Number, not some nebulous "model/build year"

Gotcha. Soooo many renditions and modifications over the years has made references by date/model to be generally useless. The Cat parts pages are painful to load, but like you said, everything is by Machine Serial Number clearly.
But if I ever sell the thing, be nice to tell them the Year instead of 23Yxxxx. I hope to get it to be a keeper though.
I have a case 450B dozer that I WILL be selling soon. Undercarriage is clapped out and the darn thing overheats after a while. Radiator is likely clogged, but that's another story. It DID get a rebuild on the engine, and runs great except for the overheating thing. I priced undercarriage for it and could get chains, sprockets, and hardware from a group in LA for about $3600 delivered. Replacement radiator is crazy expensive though.