clutch or no clutch

[95zIV]

I actually can't sleep in the cab, but I used to work with a operator who claimed he could sleep while actually swinging the crane! I never saw it, but I do know if he was sitting still very long, you better plan on waking him up.

I worked for a digging outfit that had a operator who would fall asleep at the controls of a machine. I have heard from multiple people who had worked with him that he would fall asleep and wake up in the middle of swinging to load a truck, or while making a cut with an excavator. They also said that when he did it you couldn't tell where he had stopped then restarted he'd been doing it for so long.

 

[counter]

clutch, or not

thanks for the replies!!!!so im to take it that clutchless shifts are the norm on the big stuff! though ive had clutchless shifts in cars and bikes that were way smoother then using the clutch! please send me in the right direction!

 

[willie59]

thanks for the replies!!!!so im to take it that clutchless shifts are the norm on the big stuff!

Yeah, that's pretty much the way it works. And thankfully so, you have to consider this; whether your driving a dump truck, semi-, crane, any big truck, your driving something that will weigh somewhere around 50 to 80 thousand pounds and will have a tranny with as many as 18 gears. If you had to shift all those gears, starting and stopping for red lights, doing this all day long, the old left leg/knee would be killing you using a clutch all day! Thankfully, clutch is only needed for getting started. After that, it's all in how you work the throttle pedal.

 

[Hendrik]

Generally in a syncromesh gear box you use a clutch once per shift and in a crash box you double de-clutch while you are learning to get the feel between the relationship of vehicle speed/gear selection/engine revs. Once you are good at shifting by double de-clutching, you move onto using no clutch. Double de-clutching gives you a 100 or so extra revs either side to get the shift right, without getting stuffed up.
Far as I remember when you take a driving test you have to double de-clutch or it's a fail. Also driving instructors will only teach you to double de-clutch, however I may be wrong on this as the only instruction I ever had was " get in the thing and go there".
Anyway proper gear jockeys will know more than me.
Remember you also have to move between the ranges and if you don't get that right you are in trouble.

 

[Bob Horrell]

The last time I had to take a driving test, I double clutched for a few miles and then asked the inspector if I could do the rest of the test without using a clutch. I was told that since I demonstrated that I could double clutch, it was OK to continue with out using the clutch.

 

[30 dirty years]

I have always used the clutch just to start and stop, I never had much luck with the clutch shifting threw the gears :Banghead always ended up grinding them til they fit.

 

[440chevy]

I helped a friend get him his class A, and without thinking about it I just taught him to ghost shift. Well, the examiner didn't like it much when he just went straight into clutch-less shifting and failed him.

 

[30 dirty years]

I helped a friend get him his class A, and without thinking about it I just taught him to ghost shift. Well, the examiner didn't like it much when he just went straight into clutch-less shifting and failed him.

WOW! Chevy I was worried about that, I got some funny looks last time I took the driving test but I still passed. Maybe I better start practicing for this one.

 

[Komatsu 150]

I helped a friend get him his class A, and without thinking about it I just taught him to ghost shift. Well, the examiner didn't like it much when he just went straight into clutch-less shifting and failed him.

I had the same thing. I sent a driver down to take the test and he was very good at shifting without the clutch, good clean shifts. The examiner told him she would fail him if he didn't use the clutch. So he did and ground every shift but she thought that was just fine and passed him.

 

[LowBoy]

I'm a no-clutch kinda guy myself. Started out in a '63 B-Model Mack with a quad box, that thing was geared so low and so worn out that even with a load on, on level ground, you could have the main in 1st and just gently push the auxilary into underdrive, and it would take off like you let the clutch out.

I've had throwout bearings, clutch shafts and other things go wrong over the years and never had to worry about being stranded with the no-clutch deal. I've had to start 'em up in gear loaded a couple times to get the load off and get it home. No big deal once you've had no choice in the matter I guess.

Currently, I have a Super 10 speed (which I hate with a passion,) and I tend to shift that by taking it out of gear and "splitting",(not splitting really, but a full gear,) then sliding it back in and repeating the process. Same for downshifting, I use neutral as a substitute for the clutch. Makes a nice, smooth transition.

I could never drive a truck smoothly with the clutch, always learned to do it without it, so that's all I know. I've seen some guys who double clutch every single gear, and still manage to pull the front wheels off the ground every cog.

I judge a "good driver" :cool2 by his first 2 minutes in the seat. If he doesn't use the clutch brake to stop the countershaft and "click" it into gear, that usually is the end of the judgement right there. If he tucks it in gear by brute force or just grinding against the intertia of the gears till they mesh, he's done as well. Time to downgrade him into something a little less complicated, like an automatic.

 

[atgreene]

I always drive without clutching.

I found the best trucks to do this with are old Detroits mated to Road Rangers. I drove several, tow with plows and wings. I could release the brakes at the sand pile after filling the hopper, roll slightly, slide it into 1st and head out. When I got to my roads I'd drop the gear, keep right on going and do my entire route w/o clutching, hills, wing, mailboxes and all.

Each of my turn-around points had a place where you could roll slightly, just enough to keep your foot off the clutch.

After 20 or 30 hours of dead-end roads, your knee really appreciated not having to hammer on the clutch.

 

[95zIV]

I always drive without clutching.
When I got to my roads I'd drop the gear, keep right on going and do my entire route w/o clutching, hills, wing, mailboxes and all.

Oh, come on we all know that mailboxes don't make a difference anyways, what would you have to clutch for anyways, they don't slow the truck down enough to make a difference.

 

[atgreene]

No, mailboxes never slowed me up much.

 

[440chevy]

I'm a no-clutch kinda guy myself. Started out in a '63 B-Model Mack with a quad box, that thing was geared so low and so worn out that even with a load on, on level ground, you could have the main in 1st and just gently push the auxilary into underdrive, and it would take off like you let the clutch out.

I've had throwout bearings, clutch shafts and other things go wrong over the years and never had to worry about being stranded with the no-clutch deal. I've had to start 'em up in gear loaded a couple times to get the load off and get it home. No big deal once you've had no choice in the matter I guess.

Currently, I have a Super 10 speed (which I hate with a passion,) and I tend to shift that by taking it out of gear and "splitting",(not splitting really, but a full gear,) then sliding it back in and repeating the process. Same for downshifting, I use neutral as a substitute for the clutch. Makes a nice, smooth transition.

I could never drive a truck smoothly with the clutch, always learned to do it without it, so that's all I know. I've seen some guys who double clutch every single gear, and still manage to pull the front wheels off the ground every cog.

I judge a "good driver" :cool2 by his first 2 minutes in the seat. If he doesn't use the clutch brake to stop the countershaft and "click" it into gear, that usually is the end of the judgement right there. If he tucks it in gear by brute force or just grinding against the intertia of the gears till they mesh, he's done as well. Time to downgrade him into something a little less complicated, like an automatic.

Just a question, but, by grinding against the inertia do you mean rolling the gear until it meshes? I've never heard this referred to as "grinding" and have asked many people who have all said rolling the gear isn't that bad for the truck. I always try to make smooth shifts but sometimes I would assume it happens to the best of us. I'm wondering if there are some differing opinions on this.

 

[Bob Horrell]

Lowboy, I am with you on the super 10s. It is like driving with a 2 speed rear end. I takes all the fun out of driving.

 

[LowBoy]

Lowboy, I am with you on the super 10s. It is like driving with a 2 speed rear end. I takes all the fun out of driving.

Exactly Bob. My last Pete I got used with a Super 10, and I hated that thing since the first time I engaged the first gear. I ran it for a couple of years and hated it more as time went by. I bought a used 18 from a guy who wrecked his Western Star and set it it the garage corner, awaiting the "Big Bang". Sure enough, one day with a full barge of #2 oil in the tanker, it failed. I celebrated the situation, because I knew it was going to be a great day once I got the 18 in. And it was. After a wrecker bill, another guy to come take my trailer and unload it, and a couple thousand dollars in odds and ends, bits and pieces, I had a normal truck once again with an 18 behind my N-14.

That Super 10 was (and IS unfortunately for me for another 2 weeks,) just like a 2 speed rear. I always go into neutral to snap the next higher cog on the button to ensure it goes in, as you know, if you don't wait long enough, it don't go too good.
My old one was so slow in going in that many times if I was not completely tuned into my game, I'd snap the button, think I was all set, then a few seconds later realize the tach is wound around to about 5 o'clock and I'm about to be rolling backwards on the interstate. That's a testimony in itself on how tough those N-14's really are right there...

440Chevy, to answer your question, "rolling" a gear to slow it down isn't really damaging as long as there's no KLUNK when it meshes. I was talking about the hotshot who jumps in the seat and grabs hold of the shifter, and stabs it in gear like he's rowing a johnboat. That kind of "rolling" ain't so good.:cool2 That's why a functioning clutch brake and the sense to use it every time you engage the clutch (to take off, not every time if you're a double-clutcher,) is essential to the longevity of all the components in a drivetrain. Stabbing a tranny in gear just eventually wears everything from the tranny itself to U joints, differential parts, etc.

A properly functioning clutch brake works by depressing the pedal all the way down to the floor, and feeling the brake as you are applying pressure to the stick simultaneously; there should be an effortless "click" into gear with no grinding at all. You may have to depress and let up slightly while putting stick into gear, but you get the picture, it's an aquired feel.

The difference between a decent chauffer and a "jerk", best describes the use or non use of the clutch brake. Ask anyone who owns equipment and pays drivers.

 

[440chevy]

Yeah when I started driving I spent some time at stop signs trying to get it into gear before I knew what the clutch brake did.

I was more talking about when your actually shifting gears though. When I was first learning I didn't exactly make smooth shifts and even now I get ahead of myself when I'm on a hill and want to make sure I don't miss it. But anyway it still feels like your rolling the gear when your putting pressure on it before the rpm drops enough for it to mesh.

 

[willie59]

I was talking about the hotshot who jumps in the seat and grabs hold of the shifter, and stabs it in gear like he's rowing a johnboat.

Yeah buddy! Like your sittin' at a red light, mindin' your own business, with a driver next to you...and you hear that "CLUNK"! Man that makes my skin crawl. And, obviously, that's a driver that ain't got a clue what a clutch brake is! I'll throw something else in here that drives us mechanics absolutely bonckers. A driver brings his rig in for you to do something to it, you get up in the cab to pull it in the shop, put your foot on the clutch, and...no free play! :Banghead The clown didn't even mention "...and while your in there, I need my clutch adjusted." If you don't know how to use a clutch brake, or know that the clutch pedal MUST have free play...you ain't no truck driver. :drinkup

 

[LowBoy]

Yeah buddy! Like your sittin' at a red light, mindin' your own business, with a driver next to you...and you hear that "CLUNK"! Man that makes my skin crawl. And, obviously, that's a driver that ain't got a clue what a clutch brake is! I'll throw something else in here that drives us mechanics absolutely bonckers. A driver brings his rig in for you to do something to it, you get up in the cab to pull it in the shop, put your foot on the clutch, and...no free play! :Banghead The clown didn't even mention "...and while your in there, I need my clutch adjusted." If you don't know how to use a clutch brake, or know that the clutch pedal MUST have free play...you ain't no truck driver. :drinkup

Ditto:thumbsup (hope that's OK to say)

 

[JDOFMEMI]

I had a water truck driver who had been doing it for years before I hired him. He was a pretty good hand, but I did not realize he did not know about the clutch brake. He got it right putting it into gear each time, no growling, so I thought he was OK. Problem was he was a clutch shift type, and he pushed the pedal ALL the way each shift. A few months went by and he tells me " I don't know whats wrong, but I can barely get the truck into gear anymore. Its fine when I am mooving, but when I am parked, I have to shut the engine off to get it in gear"
I told him the clutch brake was worn out, and he gave me a dumb look and said "Whats that?"
Driver education started after that.

He told me in 12 years, no one ever told him about a clutch brake.