FWD
Senior Member
4-71's were in a lot of older graders. If they had a good muffler, they weren't too bad. I ran an AD-4 Allis-Chalmers grader with a 4-71 without much problem years ago.
FWD
FWD
-
Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
Caterpillar 12 grader engine is dead - please help?
- Thread starter Entropy1
- Start date
OzDozer
Senior Member
Entropy1 is in for a whole world of hidden costs and mismatch fitting a Detroit Diesel to a Cat, because the engineering standards that GM and Cat use, are totally different. Cat make their own standards, they don't follow SAE standards.
Then there's the little problem of the whole lot different dimensions and weight of the Detroit.
The Cat 12 gets its traction from that great heavy chunk of cast iron in the form of the D318 sitting over the drive wheels. The 4-71 is a lightweight in comparison, and grader traction will suffer accordingly.
Then there's the little problem of the whole lot different dimensions and weight of the Detroit.
The Cat 12 gets its traction from that great heavy chunk of cast iron in the form of the D318 sitting over the drive wheels. The 4-71 is a lightweight in comparison, and grader traction will suffer accordingly.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
Wouldn't the torque curves be totally different and cause potential damage to the drive train? Some people have said Detroit 2 strokes are getting harder to find parts for too. It seems like several people would have put some kind of concoction in the cylinders to let soak for a week or so and then tried to bar the engine over but because Entropy1 couldn't fit a boroscope in the cylinders he abandoned this idea. I don't understand what it would hurt to try it??
JAJ
Well-Known Member
We/my dad, have an old Allis Chalmers grader with 3-71 GM in it… I think it’s an AD-3 but I’m having a mental blank… and it’s still going well. My Grandfather was its second owner. It’s definitely got a tone all of its own but I have a bit of a soft spot for it.
On a more serious note, if this graders original engine turns out to be beyond repair (when or if it gets opened up), would it be possible to swap to a D333c or a 3306 (newer 6cyl)?
I know it would loose its matching numbers status but parts might be more readily available and at least it would still have a cat engine. I have absolutely no idea if either would actually fit in there or bolt up ect??
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
Attached is a random picture of a CAT D315 engine. I believe the bellhousing pattern is the same as what's on my Grader, however I think the flywheel is different (this was a dozer application, with different type clutch).
Attached are two pictures of the little 471 I picked up. It's set up for 12 volt, turns in the correct direction, and more importantly, it has the larger SAE-1 bellhousing. It looks rough, but it runs strong. (was originally a water-pump unit - was taken out of service becasue the pump failed).
The plan is to build an adapter plate (between 1 and 2 inches thick) from OS Steel, that is SAE-1 on one side, and CAT-12 on the other. The adapter plate will bolt to the 471, then the 471/plate will bolt up against the CAT-12 transmission.
I am then going to turn a thicker 471 flywheel that has the correct D318 features on one side (Detroit on the other) to accept the CAT-12 clutch & input shafts. The thicker flywheel will position the flywheel face at the proper standoff distance, permitting it to work with the stock grader clutch components. Also - replacement 471 flywheel ring-gears are still available, which is a plus..
I also picked up some 1" x 12" flat bar, with some 1" x 24" wide pieces. This steel will be used to ballast the grader with the lighter 471 engine - to restore it back to the proper operating weight.
The only part of this process that I cannot do myself is balancing the new flywheel - which I will have to farm out to a shop in Tacoma/Fife.
Should be a pretty straight forward motor swap.
Attached are two pictures of the little 471 I picked up. It's set up for 12 volt, turns in the correct direction, and more importantly, it has the larger SAE-1 bellhousing. It looks rough, but it runs strong. (was originally a water-pump unit - was taken out of service becasue the pump failed).
The plan is to build an adapter plate (between 1 and 2 inches thick) from OS Steel, that is SAE-1 on one side, and CAT-12 on the other. The adapter plate will bolt to the 471, then the 471/plate will bolt up against the CAT-12 transmission.
I am then going to turn a thicker 471 flywheel that has the correct D318 features on one side (Detroit on the other) to accept the CAT-12 clutch & input shafts. The thicker flywheel will position the flywheel face at the proper standoff distance, permitting it to work with the stock grader clutch components. Also - replacement 471 flywheel ring-gears are still available, which is a plus..
I also picked up some 1" x 12" flat bar, with some 1" x 24" wide pieces. This steel will be used to ballast the grader with the lighter 471 engine - to restore it back to the proper operating weight.
The only part of this process that I cannot do myself is balancing the new flywheel - which I will have to farm out to a shop in Tacoma/Fife.
Should be a pretty straight forward motor swap.
Attachments
FWD
Senior Member
A cat grader with a Detroit engine will surely be unique, one of a kind. A 112 Cat grader had a D315 engine. I had a 112 3U series. It had plenty of power for grading, but could have used more power for road gear. I think the frame work was similar, if not the same as a 12 of the same vintage.
FWD
FWD
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
Sill looking for a running D318. Only available options are to buy a running grader or running dozer. It would seem that the already-pulled & running D318s are either all snatched up or are not for sale. . . . .
Cottonstemfarm
New Member
I have I think around the same year grader as you. I think I’m going to sell to buy a newer dozer. It’s a good runner. The pony motor still starts the machine. I don’t have a battery in it though. I’ve had it for about a year to build the road to my house. It’s almost done and time to move to the next project.
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
What is your asking price? Where are you located?
Cottonstemfarm
New Member
I’m by Dallas. I’m just looking to get what I paid for it minus all the work I put in it. $6500
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
Price is good for the machine, but I'd probably pay more than your asking price getting it shipped up here. I appreciate the offer nonetheless.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
And for the main event.
In the yellow corner we have the reigning champ with 62 pages and 1223 posts...D6C with loss of oil pressure.
In the yellow and green corner we have Caterpillar 12 engine is dead with 10 pages and 192 posts.
Lettts get ready to rummmble.
In the yellow corner we have the reigning champ with 62 pages and 1223 posts...D6C with loss of oil pressure.
In the yellow and green corner we have Caterpillar 12 engine is dead with 10 pages and 192 posts.
Lettts get ready to rummmble.
Truck Shop
Senior Member
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
Found a D315 for sale (pulled) for 500 bucks. It was complete, but it had a hole in the side of the block from a thrown rod.
I thought about buying it - to obtain 4 of my 6 missing injectors. But 500 bucks seems a bit steep - for an incomplete set of injectors.
I'll keep looking.
I thought about buying it - to obtain 4 of my 6 missing injectors. But 500 bucks seems a bit steep - for an incomplete set of injectors.
I'll keep looking.
Entropy1
Well-Known Member
Every spring/summer our local recycling yard would get 3 or 4 graders dropped off for scrap. If you ask, they'd sell parts for just over scrap value (provided you pull them). Those numbers have noticeably tapered-off over the past few years. Apparently there's not a lot of old machinery in this area left to scrap.
Part of that is due to an unusual steel bubble we had several years ago, where #1 was approaching 500 dollars per ton. That summer people were driving equipment off the trailer - not just recycling broken machines.
Part of that is due to an unusual steel bubble we had several years ago, where #1 was approaching 500 dollars per ton. That summer people were driving equipment off the trailer - not just recycling broken machines.
Blue-Fox
Well-Known Member
We heard about price here in AK, but the boats never came to haul it away.
Blue-Fox
Well-Known Member
I sent one to the scrap guy, he says he will rebuild it. 13K -5639 my grandpa bought it new. Sad but finals housings busted up and chewd up the internals real bad. My dad spent @5k on parts 20 years ago AND NEVER USED THEM !! Just needed a good mechanic.
Tugger2
Senior Member
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/hvo/d/monroe-diesel-cat-generator-75kw/7711642750.html Heres a lead for you on a 318 for your grader. Im not sure how similar a 318 G is to the 318 in your grader but others in here will know
OzDozer
Senior Member
The genset engines have a different governor to keep speed variations under altering loads to around 3%. The tractor engines are allowed 10% variation in governed speed.
The Cat industrial engines in this era had less design changes and internal component changes, compared to the later engines of the 1970's, when engine arrangement numbers started to be used to take into account all the different internal components.
That's a pretty reasonably priced genset for its size, if it runs O.K.
The Cat industrial engines in this era had less design changes and internal component changes, compared to the later engines of the 1970's, when engine arrangement numbers started to be used to take into account all the different internal components.
That's a pretty reasonably priced genset for its size, if it runs O.K.