Cat to the Mat

[Tsanch]

I totally agree with you. I have pretty much moved on and use skid steer loaders for support equipment rather than production. Of course there are those times when only a skid steer loader will work. But for cooling, there are some great auxiliary hydraulic oil coolers out there. With these little guys having only about 9-10 gallons of hyd oil. I have used one on my Case which allowed me to remove the cheap factory cooler. It took All my heating issues away while running a Fecon. Anyway, probably venturing A bit off the subject. Lol

 

[LanceNE]

Haven't heard a lot about Bobcat's steel tracked machine. From what Bobcat dealer told me, price tag seems to be scaring most folks away......I believe he said it was $20k above what the tracked machine was. Most contractors are just opting to use that to buy more rubber.

 

[Tsanch]

Wow! Skid steer (tracked of course) are getting closer and closer to the $100k price range. That is nuts!

 

[LanceNE]

Yeah...steep price! But then again, look at the price of a new truck. I wish they would make a skid steer for maybe a little bit more that would be geared for full time production. Skid steers have plenty of horsepower and hydraulics, but my opinion, they are still based on short production period. Hammering at it all day long, the machines just don't seem to be able to take it.

 

[Bossfoss]

Does ASV have the same trouble with tracks coming off or is it just Cat's that throw fits. Seems like ASV made their name in tough terrain.

 

[LanceNE]

Night and day difference between the Cat and ASV throwing tracks. We do lose tracks on the 287 & 297....ASV style undercarriage, but we usually deserve it! When we first bought Cat's CTL 2 years ago, had a 279 and a 287 running side by side, and the CTL was averaging losing a track once a day, when the MTL wasn't. I thought it might just be a CTL thing, as I'd had lots of issues with the early JD throwing tracks, but was renting a Bobcat for about 100 hours in the same terrain and didn't lose a track once. It did try.. which is where Cat has a big issue, is you could feel and hear the Bobcat possibly starting to derail ......but with Cat's CTL, when you hear it you are done.

 

[toomuchtime]

Man lance it sounds like you have has some serious issues with your c series machine! I have a 289C and have only derailed a track one. Fortunatley I derailed but did not completely throw it. I to am in alot of extreme situations with my machine mowing on a daily basis. Every now and then i will get the click noise of death lol but it seems I can ease out of it to avoid derailing. This only happpens in real extreme terrain mostly steep slopes with uneven boulders or logs on the ground. I dont know maybe ive just been fortunate! I love my machine and cannot say a bad thing about it. I demoed a t320 for about a month before my 289c purchase they should give free chiropractor visits with the purchase of a t320 cause it was horrible on the back. Your right when you say all the machines have there downfalls but I am extremely happy with my 289C sorry to hear you are not that sucks! I really believe no matter what machine you go with it is not a matter of if it will break it is when and a honest dealer will make or break you with the support they give.

 

[LanceNE]

Toomuchtime - yeah lots of issues with Cat's undercarriages. Not had near the luck you have had with their CTL's. Rented a T320, you are correct the ride is rough and I'm not sure if this is common with Bobcat, but the hydraulic squeal would have had me in a rubber room before too long. I rented the Bobcat because the local and regional Cat dealer was adamant that the Cat's (both CTL and MTL) were not designed to do forestry type work. Which is ironic since they are doing an awfully good job trying to sell attachments that specifically do forestry work and the machines were originally sold to us to do this work (in another state). Bobcat confirmed what I'd been telling Cat for 2 years.....they dropped the ball on their CTL design. That same area I rented the Bobcat for 100 hours, we lost no tracks....lost 3 tracks in 4 hours with a supposedly modified 299C. Cat mechanic was out there .....confirmed it was not operator driving or terrain. I'm not an engineer so won't speculate on what needs fixed.....but a little taken back when a year ago a Regional CAT rep said they knew there was a derailing issue at production but thought they could fix it on the go. You are right that an honest dealer will make and break you. But what is more important the manufacturer themselves needs to be honest with dealers. We've dealt with 2 different Cat dealers in 2 states and they were very uninformed with the derailing issues on the CTL's. Like I've said before, I think the rest of the machine is great.....

 

[toomuchtime]

That sucks! When I bought my machine actually before I had 287b nothing but problems with undercarriage. I went back to cat and told them i was not happy with the machine. They suggested going to the ctl for my application which is mulching and clearing. They releaized it was a error on the salesman part in saling me a mtl machine for my application. They bought the mtl back for what i paid for it. Then let me demo a 289 for almost a month and also prodvided me with a internal sales brochure outlining what they thought were the machines weakness's in a forestry application along with upgrades to help correct them.There was a ac snorkel kit (which I got),forestry rear door for the machine,double idler option and a narrow track option. They also went out on alimb and encouraged me to demo other machines for my application. i demoed the deere,bobcat and taki they all had there downfalls including the cat but for my needs the cat 289c was by far the best for me.
I just bought a 305.5 that I take delivery of monday to add in my clearing projects. I hope they get there bugs worked out on your machine they defiantly have the ability to do so without costing you a penny. Just matters on the dealerships business ethics really! good luck! if you need any info shoot me a message but it sounds like you have it already!

 

[LanceNE]

TMT - glad you are having better luck than we are, especially with your dealer. Night and day difference ......was a dealer who recommended the MTL's to us and another dealer which depreciated them to less than 50% at less than 1000 hours when trying to come up with a different option. Not sure if it is standard, either your experience or mine, but we have heard of many instances when Cat is much quicker to blame the customer than trying to come up with solutions. We deal with multiple manufacturers and the good ones are a pleasure to work with. I'll give you an instance on how one manufacturer handled an issue compared to how Cat would have (at least in our experience).
I have a Fecon Bullhog (and no I'm not a dealer or salesman).... coming on 2 years ago, in the dead of winter, it had a massive hydraulic pump failure. We were in a remote location and there was not a direct Fecon dealer in the area.....was really dreading explaining to the company what had happened and the downtime we might have. Took some pictures, emailed them over and called them the same day. Here is how they responded:
- They apologized and said this was their bad (they had been testing a new type of pump manufacturer.....gave this information without my asking)
- They would air mail overnight a new pump to my location at their expense.
- Said they would and did hire a mechanic of our choice to install it the next day at their expense.
- Did not ask once or try to blame us as a customer.
Here is how Cat would have responded to the same situation if it was their bullhog they had sold us:
- Even though we sold you this attachment to grind trees, we didn't expect you to do that and we were just joking. Did you really expect if we sold you a grinder to grind trees that you could actually grind trees with our grinder?
- Nobody on planet earth is having problems with our grinders. In fact, we have sold grinders to Luke Skywalkers planet "Totooene" and absolutely nobody is having problems.
- Since nobody is having problems, and since we feel bad for you since you are the exception, we will "help you" because we are such a great company by splitting the cost for installing an updated pump which our engineers have designed just in case this situation should happen even though this situation is not happening for anyone else. We will pay for the cost of the pump which is in the bazillions....in fact JD is going to loan us some money so we can put this pump in your machine. You will be required at your expense from your remote location to find a Cat dealer only, transport your machine to them at your expense and wait at least 2 weeks because they are working on other Cat machines that Cat is graciously fixing since there are no issues on Caterpillars. Yes we know that Caterpillar is much higher cost than anyone else but it is worth it because we are great company. You will feel better by helping stimulate the economy and supporting Cat mechanics of America.
- Again, want to make sure you know we are helping you because there really is no issue.

One thing we have learned from all these non track issues, it has cost us a lot of money but until Cat makes it right, it will cost Cat a lot of money also.

 

[Tsanch]

Lance, that is too funny! But you are absolutely right! Unfortunately Caterpillar has such a level of arrogance that you just described the majority of their "small" contractors feelings and stories. My CAT dealer even charged me for a new set of tracks they originally agreed to warranty. They still had 50% or better rubber! And of course two months later when I finally got the bill, my original tracks were long gone... Maybe when you buy at least $10,000,000.00 worth of CAT equipment the story begins to change? Who knows maybe then you can gripe about your problems over a game of golf! Lol

 

[LanceNE]

Cat is very fortunate I'm not buying $10m in machinery, because I guarantee it wouldn't be with them after the treatment we've had. But you are right, one of the things that infuriated me was when we are out here busting our tails and trying to get them to understand what is wrong and getting nothing but grief from Cat. I hear they are working with a large company back east to get these things figured out. Really.... after informing them for over 2 years, you are exactly right - arrogance! But, on another note, forums like this let the small guys know which companies to avoid. I honestly believe the majority of the people on here aren't trying to bash. If Cat had said from day one that there was an issue (and their engineers knew there were issues) and said they were sorry but would work with us to get these things worked out...I would have posted pictures and posts supporting Cat. We may be small, but we are many in numbers and I know their arrogance has cost them, at least in track machine sales.

 

[Tsanch]

Very well put... Shame on ANY manufacturer who knowingly sells an under designed piece of equipment knowing that equipment is a persons livelihood. My 299C has the same sad story... Think long and hard before trying a Case out too. I had a 440C that was an even bigger piece of junk than the Cat! Axles breaking, ac would quit continuous, overheating, etc, etc, etc.

 

[LanceNE]

Hard to believe a bigger piece of crap..... lol! Actually, if take the whole undercarriage off, the rest of the machines, we haven't had as many issues with, knock on wood.
I would agree that Bobcat might not be the best in every category, but they seem to be a solid performer. Not needing all the bells and whistles, just the ability to put in a good days work without breaking us.

 

[DGODGR]

Interesting thread Lance. I have heard ofa few people who have had issues with Cat but not to this level. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. My experience with (2) different Cat dealers, also in (2) different states, has been much different than yours. In my experience the Cat dealers have been, BY FAR, the most profesional and stand up dealers. I currently own (2) Cats, (2) Bobcats, and (1) Deere. I have the most time (about 17,000 hours between the two) and most experiences with the (2) Cats. If you are thinking that the Bobcat might be the answer for you please research my posts. I have given a few testimonials of my very poor experiences with the brand and the local dealer. I imagine it is possible to find someone who has had a bad experience with any brand out there. I am telling you about my bad experiences with Bobcat because I feel as though they are too numerous not to. As much trouble as I have had with BOTH of my Bobcats I find it hard to believe I am the exception to the rule. i just thought you should know. I hope you find a good solution to your problems.
BTW I demoed a 257 a few years back. Appearently I tore up the undercarriage pretty bad because they wanted me to pay about $6k for 40 hours of use. The small units are soold by Wagner Rents out here. I put a call in to my Wagner Equipment salesman and he made it right (no cost to me).
Best of luck to you.

 

[LanceNE]

DGODGR, I would agree that the dealer makes or breaks any equipment line. A dealer with unethical practices or lack of knowledge is a detriment no matter what type of equipment it is. What irritates me with Cat is, it was not only the local dealers, but Cat Corp themselves that failed. With the CTL, if the regional rep, who was out of CO, is saying Cat Corp and Cat engineers knew of the problems with the CTL, you can bet, the local dealers would want this information. I'm glad to hear you've had better luck with Cat. Not really pushing the Bobcat as a system, just pointing out the fact that their CTL system actually stayed on in multiple types of terrain. Cat should remember what color paint is on their skid steers and if they don't design them to go in the same terrain or environment as other brands, I know a good shade of pink that would look good on their compact loaders.

 

[Dirtgirl]

I'm new to this site, but I saw at Conexpo in Vegas this year, Bair Products is coming out with a part the fixes the derailment problem. A part that bolts around the wheels like a guide that keeps the main wheel in the groove.....Food for thought

 

[DGODGR]

I'm new to this site, but I saw at Conexpo in Vegas this year, Bair Products is coming out with a part the fixes the derailment problem. A part that bolts around the wheels like a guide that keeps the main wheel in the groove.....Food for thought

Lance is having issues with Cat CTLs. I thought that Bair has been offering products for Cat MTLs. Is the product that you are refering to designed for the MTLs (Multi Terrain Loaders-ASV style undercarriage) or the CTLs (Compact Track Loader)?
Welcome to the sight.

 

[LanceNE]

Dirtgirl - Welcome. Lots of good info can be found on all sorts of heavy equipment. I've not heard of the Bair add on for the Cat CTL's. They make quite a few after market products for the MTL's, but I would'n't be surprised since Cat's CTL's have had serious derailing issues that there aren't some after market companies seeking solutions. My experience with Cat is that usually others find the solution.

 

[Redbud]

Just an FYI for this thread: Cat is releasing a triple-flange idler, and reinforced tower for the CTL. They have been doing field-follows with this setup and it seems to have fixed the derailment issues. Going back to what DGODGR said, it's the dealer that makes or breaks the relationship with the customer. While I agree that there is a certain level of arrogance in the Cat Corp, I will also say that they haven't forgot the people that got them where they are in the first place. This is my experience with Cat anyway. I've seen all types of customer service in the Midwest from all manufacturers, and for product support and customer service the Cat dealer wins, hands down.