CAT C series Dust in Cab

[Yellowdog]

I think he's talkin bout the glow in the dark thing.
I totally agree yopu paid for the system you should get yer money's worth. The dealer seems to be upholding his end of the deal tryin to fix the problem, so yer good there. I'm curious to know how this is resolved in the end...

i know that!, NOW... Duh

 

[bigbob]

Stopped at my local Cat dealer, Milton Cat in Hopkinton, NH yesterday to pick up some parts, and they had a few C Series skid steers out front on display. Got into a 277C, nice cab, but the seal at the bottom of the glass door had a 1/8" crack along the bottom, not sealing at all. Cat should pay more attention to their QC when fitting the doors. Must be a hinge adjustment to make it tight. Looked to be a quality seal, just not fitted right!

 

[Yellowdog]

Stopped at my local Cat dealer, Milton Cat in Hopkinton, NH yesterday to pick up some parts, and they had a few C Series skid steers out front on display. Got into a 277C, nice cab, but the seal at the bottom of the glass door had a 1/8" crack along the bottom, not sealing at all. Cat should pay more attention to their QC when fitting the doors. Must be a hinge adjustment to make it tight. Looked to be a quality seal, just not fitted right!

I found out that you have to make sure the door closes on the second clasp around the door striker but mine still didn't seal too good and was replaced by cat.
I have been without my machine for 10 days now. The first time, it was gone for about a week.
Cat had ordered some parts but a week later, they hadn't come in. Not sure when it will be up and ready but I don't hold much confidence now that it will be sealed do to some flaws I see in the cab window system.

 

[jmf]

I'm surprised that Cat is not a lot more embarrassed then their response demonstrates. Maybe you should move up the ladder and talk directly to factory management.

jmf

 

[Yellowdog]

I'm going through the dealer and they are trying but I am not sure they know what all the problems are or how to fix them. Cat corporate has not been very helpful and I have not been given the opportunity to talk directly but rather they forward my emails and complaints. I have given CAT this second opportunity to fix the issue because they did get me a loaner and wanted a second opportunity. If the machine fails to perform as advertised after this, I'm going to ask for my money back or hire a lawyer since the machine has had so much down time and I am paying a premium for features that do not work as they should. My loaner doesn't seal great either and that lends me to think there are some problems with C series pressurized cabs that have not been addressed. I don't want perfection in a machine as I know that is unattainable. I want it to perform as advertised, promised, and as outlined in the salesman's presentation. It has been both difficult and frustrating to have the down time from on site evaluations that didn't solve anything to swapping the machine for a loaner. I have enough down time because of weather factors, parts problems with other machines, and time needed for maintenance so I don't need the extra down time from a machine that has problems. I have pointed out to CAT that I have had more down time with this machine since April than I had with 3 years of (3) Bobcat S300's used in the same applications.

 

[jmf]

Before you sue, you should talk to Cat Corporate as they will be named in the suit. The manufacturer tends to ignore these things in hopes their dealers can handle it, so don't assume Cat is working on this as hard as they should be. If you are serious about suing you don't need to threaten, Corporate will know your serious when you explain the problem, the failed attempts and hear about your damages.

jmf

 

[KSSS]

I'm going through the dealer and they are trying but I am not sure they know what all the problems are or how to fix them. Cat corporate has not been very helpful and I have not been given the opportunity to talk directly but rather they forward my emails and complaints. I have given CAT this second opportunity to fix the issue because they did get me a loaner and wanted a second opportunity. If the machine fails to perform as advertised after this, I'm going to ask for my money back or hire a lawyer since the machine has had so much down time and I am paying a premium for features that do not work as they should. My loaner doesn't seal great either and that lends me to think there are some problems with C series pressurized cabs that have not been addressed. I don't want perfection in a machine as I know that is unattainable. I want it to perform as advertised, promised, and as outlined in the salesman's presentation. It has been both difficult and frustrating to have the down time from on site evaluations that didn't solve anything to swapping the machine for a loaner. I have enough down time because of weather factors, parts problems with other machines, and time needed for maintenance so I don't need the extra down time from a machine that has problems. I have pointed out to CAT that I have had more down time with this machine since April than I had with 3 years of (3) Bobcat S300's used in the same applications.

This post at least in part convinces me what I suspected all along and that is that there is design issues with this cab. The fact that the loaner machines are not any better than the machine that you bought seals the deal for me. They will have to alter the existing design to make it as promised, because obviously as they come from the factory is not as they promised you it would be. They perhaps need to increase the positive pressure inside the cab to overcome the leaky door seals and it also sounds like the clean air intake in the cab has issues, that could be more difficult to fix.

I personally think CAT will soon reach a point that they will no longer be willing to make it right. After numerous efforts to improve the situation they will have no choice but to come back and say this is the best we can do. What happens from there will be interesting. CAT may let you out of their machine by choice or force you to use the legal system to make them take it back.

 

[bobcatmechanic]

bobcat pro rates the machines when this happens and makes you pay a difference for a new machine when you are unhappy with the one you have due to their assembly problems our just bad factory parts or just a lemon machine dumb to do but i can see there point they don't want to eat all the wear on the machine but if your unhappy with it i don't see why you would go back to it but then again all the prototypes they make they destroy so either way it comes out the same i think could be wrong.

 

[KSSS]

bobcat pro rates the machines when this happens and makes you pay a difference for a new machine when you are unhappy with the one you have due to their assembly problems our just bad factory parts or just a lemon machine dumb to do but i can see there point they don't want to eat all the wear on the machine but if your unhappy with it i don't see why you would go back to it but then again all the prototypes they make they destroy so either way it comes out the same i think could be wrong.

If CAT took back Yellow Dogs machine they would be able to resell it to someone who is not expecting a totally dirt free cab. It does not appear to be a lemon at least, it just is not what the buyer thought he was buying. The issue of course is the depreciation that the machine has taken. That is where the rub will be. CASE will often deduct a set $ figure for the hours on the machine and charge the customer for those hours and the rest they will eat, depending on the situation. CAT will likely do something similiar or perhaps as mentioned to keep him quiet maybe they will just take the machine, refund the money and walk away. If there are other cases like this they will likely see where they went wrong. Otherwise they will chalk it up to one of those cases were the machine simply did not met the customers expectations through no fault of the machine (of course that would be CATs take on it). Maybe they need to educate their marketing and sales people on just what customers can really expect with this new cab.

 

[Yellowdog]

I haven't threatened to sue anyone because HOLT CAT, the dealer, has been trying to resolve the issue but it's an option if the machine doesn't seal the dust out. Since it is going to take extensive modifications (which may or may not hold up in the brush), I haven't decided if I will sign off on anything as "fixed" unless it works without a lot of extra effort and maintenance on my part. Holt has tried, I will give them that, but I read some of the corporate emails and they point to a lack of understanding and no fix. Holt CAT is adding a snorkel to my AC system. I really do not like that idea because it isn't part of the original design and I didn't much like the brush modifications that seem to have failed after less than 200 hrs. on the loaner machine I have.
I am not a happy camper and I am trying to be positive but I will be damned if I am going to pay a prorated rate for a machine that didn't work from day 1, has caused me down time, and through no fault of mine (Holt was waiting on a loaner and CAT corporate to make a decision or send some repair info), has had to be used so I can make the payment which is about 600 bucks more than I had to make with my Bobcat.
Part of having a good machine is feeling good about it day in and day out. Though Bobcat's s300's frustrated me when running a brush mower, and I wasn't all that comfy in the cab after many years, I felt like I could take the machine anywhere and not worry about breakdowns or not being able to breathe in my cab. I am unwilling to bend over on this one...not after all the promises, the Bobcat bashing from the sales people, and being told flat out, that I was getting the best machine out there that would be backed by the biggest machinery manufacturer and Holt Cat's integrity and commitment to doing the right thing.
Doing the right thing is not letting a major purchase ruin a small business owner.
Here's how I see it:
If I don't have a high flow, heavy duty skid steer, I can't:
Shear and stack large trees to feed my Vermeer BC2000
Can't grind the stumps
Can't mulch the underbrush, brushpiles, old stumps, etc.
Can't build and maintain the driveways I currently take care of,
Etc., Etc., Etc.

I will be the first to compliment CAT on a good fix or a job well done. I have done so with Holt since they have been helpful seeking a loaner but I still don't think, that without extensive modifications, I will have a sealed and pressurized cab.

While I am grateful for the loaner, I am not producing 90 hp to keep my pump up to speed for my grinder, my ROC is much less, and I have already had down time for a flat because of the stock tires. I am also without my radio, my fire extinguishers and tinted moon roof which means I am doing without some of my creature comforts. Some may say I'm spoiled, but I paid for it!

 

[Digdeep]

I heard today that ASV will be releasing a true forestry edition PT100 sometime in June. The machine is supposed to have a "certified" sealed and pressurized cab, a SAE certified forestry cab, a automatic reversing fan, forestry guarding, steel hood, higher hydraulic pressures, hinged reinforced belly pans for engine bay cleanout, guarding for the hydraulic quick couplers, and it can still be used with standard skid steer attachments. They are supposed to make a formal announcement around the middle of the month.

 

[Yellowdog]

ASV's machine sounds like it would fit the bill except for the conditions we work in here. Lots of sharp cedar stumps and lots of sharp rocks including sharp flint which will slice through most rubber. I imagine guys in other areas will be happy to hear about this machine.

Not sure what a certified forestry cab is. I don't think 10k lb machines should be knocking over trees capable of flipping or crushing the machine but I'm sure there are those that do it.

 

[alco]

I don't want perfection in a machine as I know that is unattainable. I want it to perform as advertised, promised, and as outlined in the salesman's presentation.

Some may say I'm spoiled, but I paid for it!

We've heard from some on what their stance is on this, and I thought I would chime in as well. I think you are being completely reasonable on this. As you have stated, you paid for the option, it was advertised and promised to work a certain way, and therefore it should. If it isn't performing the way it is supposed to, then don't stop until you have satisfaction on the matter. I think this is the road you are going to follow, and I also think you should be commended for it. I'm also glad your dealer is working with you on this.

Keep us informed on how it progresses.

Brian

 

[Yellowdog]

We've heard from some on what their stance is on this, and I thought I would chime in as well. I think you are being completely reasonable on this. As you have stated, you paid for the option, it was advertised and promised to work a certain way, and therefore it should. If it isn't performing the way it is supposed to, then don't stop until you have satisfaction on the matter. I think this is the road you are going to follow, and I also think you should be commended for it. I'm also glad your dealer is working with you on this.

Keep us informed on how it progresses.

Brian

The thing I toil with on this subject is how much down time do I endure while CAT has a learning curve on my machine? Yes, I'm grateful they want to work with me but realistically, I am a small mom and pop company with big dreams and I can't afford the down time. I put my machine into service March 31. It broke down the first day overheating. Bad fan speed. Cat was responsive and came out to my place the next day but it took all day to diagnose and fix, and then test the fan speed because it was a new series machine and needed an extra set of hands to help.
As soon as I started grinding in dusty conditions, it became apparent the cab didn't seal well. Down time for that while they came out and adjusted my door. Cat took my machine in for a week and brought me a loaner but loaner had issues and had a few hours down time with that plus the swap.
Machine has had issues (clogged AC evaporator) and other problems related to the dust that = more down time while they came out (yes, I'm grateful for the service call) but the fix lasted less than 8 hours before AC quit again because of the dust leakage and then the machine went back in. It will be 2 weeks this thursday and no resolution. That's a total of 3 full weeks, plus the service down time in the field plus the time needed to get the loaner machine acceptable to do what I do. That's almost 4 weeks of down time! I have 130 +/- hrs. on it and just don't know how much more time I want to spend on this lemon cab. I have to say that Holt has been helpful but that doesn't pay my bills or ease my frustration so I am asking myself what to do.

 

[KSSS]

Yellowdog, you had said that the CASE dealer was near your BC dealer I believe. Perhaps stopping in and see if they have a 465 or even a 450 with cab and high flow in series 3 to demo on your mulcher. The dealer up here just got two new 465's in one with cab but neither with high flow, so they are starting to get them out. It would accomplish two things. One you could see how the CASE cab handles this environment and you could get back to work. If you like the machine, I would make CAT pay for the 465 rental while they reengineer your cab. See if that doesn't light a fire. Second, is I think you will soon find yourself at a cross road. You will either have to accept the 272C as it is, or fight them to take it back. If your successful in getting them to take it back you will need to find another machine.

I suspect part of the reason your not seeing the performance you thought you would compared to your S300 is the lower torque rating of the CAT. Your old BC had more than the new CAT. The destroking pump does a good job of disguising the lower torque of the engine when using the bucket for excavating, but I bet when running a demanding, high flow attachment it is not able to conceal the low torque of the motor. Adding more PSI is not effective without torque.

 

[joe901]

Thumbs up for YELLODOG

The thing I toil with on this subject is how much down time do I endure while CAT has a learning curve on my machine? Yes, I'm grateful they want to work with me but realistically, I am a small mom and pop company with big dreams and I can't afford the down time. I put my machine into service March 31. It broke down the first day overheating. Bad fan speed. Cat was responsive and came out to my place the next day but it took all day to diagnose and fix, and then test the fan speed because it was a new series machine and needed an extra set of hands to help.
As soon as I started grinding in dusty conditions, it became apparent the cab didn't seal well. Down time for that while they came out and adjusted my door. Cat took my machine in for a week and brought me a loaner but loaner had issues and had a few hours down time with that plus the swap.
Machine has had issues (clogged AC evaporator) and other problems related to the dust that = more down time while they came out (yes, I'm grateful for the service call) but the fix lasted less than 8 hours before AC quit again because of the dust leakage and then the machine went back in. It will be 2 weeks this thursday and no resolution. That's a total of 3 full weeks, plus the service down time in the field plus the time needed to get the loaner machine acceptable to do what I do. That's almost 4 weeks of down time! I have 130 +/- hrs. on it and just don't know how much more time I want to spend on this lemon cab. I have to say that Holt has been helpful but that doesn't pay my bills or ease my frustration so I am asking myself what to do.

You have my fullest sympathy for the predicament you are in. My thinking on this problem is that this is much bigger than one justifiably disgruntled customer, this is something that every " C " purchaser should be backing you on, and pressuring their individual CAT dealer for some sort of solution, either a fix ( factory recall at no cost to customer ), or some form of financial reimbursement for breaching consumer regulations.

It is obvious CAT has a real problem here, more with their claim that their machine IS when clearly it is NOT.

I feel it imperative this matter be persued until you both come to an amicable solution. Equally imperative that this not be " kept secret ". These forums are very important for the prospective buyer, seasoned operator and newbie. How else are we to improve the 'next model' if the manufacturers are not made aware of flaws, and do not take notice of the individual.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting a vigilante strike or suicide bombing on the CAT corporate, much can be achieved with reason, logic and civility.

I look forward to reading your postings, and others opinions on this matter, hang in there, and don't underestimate the importance of what is at stake.

Best of luck.

 

[Yellowdog]

I suspect part of the reason your not seeing the performance you thought you would compared to your S300 is the lower torque rating of the CAT. Your old BC had more than the new CAT. The destroking pump does a good job of disguising the lower torque of the engine when using the bucket for excavating, but I bet when running a demanding, high flow attachment it is not able to conceal the low torque of the motor. Adding more PSI is not effective without torque.

The cat has slightly more torque.I believe it's 217 in the cat vs 211 in the s300 but that still seems awfully inadequate for a 90 hp machine. I just didn't have enough info on the torque when I was looking at the machine. Digging power has been more than adequate, however. I just don't see the rotor speed or torque increase in the mulcher that I thought I would. When I demoed, I didn't have the experience running hand controls so I thought it might be me. I demoed another type of mower and it was about the same or slightly better.
Since I don't grind full time, I can live with that performance if a machine is reliable.
I will talk to CASE soon if CAT can't resolve my issue.

 

[OneWelder]

By no means do I think you should roll over for CAT- but you might want to consider all options and figure out what is best for you.
I believe I would look at other machines with working effective pressurized cabs - see if one these could be adapted to your machine. There were a lot of Dump compacters, Loaders,and dozers with pressurized cabs. Once you find something go to the salvage yard and price whole setup
Compare cost of that to Trading, or legal action.

 

[Yellowdog]

Cat reiterated today that a snorkel on the AC system should solve my problems. AC gets clogged, loses pressurization, dust enters. I am skeptical because of the vibration issues on the sliding windows. I will be testing it within the next 10 days or so when I get my machine back. By then, it will have been in the shop for almost a month!

 

[alco]

I'm just curious if the snorkel setup has a precleaner on it or if it's just a snorkel?

Brian