Cat 973 fuel injector pump - no fuel

[Welder Dave]

Or bend over more?

 

[Nige]

It would probably be worth pointing out at this stage that neither of the foregoing are absolutely essential. A handful of good quality glycerine-filled gauges of the correct ranges and just the absolutely necessary hoses & pressure taps for the OP’s machine would likely do the job just as well for maybe 1/10th of the price or less. Maybe Cmark can suggest somewhere to ask.

 

[Bluox]

They will water even more when you discover 6V-4157 is only the box with the gauges in it. There is another number (could be 6V-4158 but don’t quote me) that contains all the test hoses and couplings, adapters, pressure taps, etc, required to actually connect the test box to a machine. Last time I looked that group was about half the price of a test box. I think it’s called something like a “hose & fittings group”.

Actually a 6V4157 is a test group and it comes with 9 hoses with couplings and 9 gauges .
Don't think 6V4158 is a tool number.
The 1U5481and 82 was a popular transmission box and adaptors but I bet its twice as much.
Bob

 

[Nige]

The 1U5481and 82 was a popular transmission box and adaptors but I bet its twice as much.

That's the one I was thinking of, and you're right it's probably a lot more than $3k for the two.

 

[Bluox]

It would probably be worth pointing out at this stage that neither of the foregoing are absolutely essential. A handful of good quality glycerine-filled gauges of the correct ranges and just the absolutely necessary hoses & pressure taps for the OP’s machine would likely do the job just as well for maybe 1/10th of the price or less. Maybe Cmark can suggest somewhere to ask.

If you have done any testing on power shift transmissions having the gauges where you can watch all of them at the same time is important ,I guess hyrastat testing is about the same so at the least mount the gauges on a bar.
Bob

 

[Nige]

I agree. Having all the gauges in one location makes watching pressures easier. The box on the footplate next to the cab door was the common location. I've seen tape or magic markers used to label the gauges with things like P1, P2, etc, so that there was no mistaking which gauge was reading what test point. The only fly in the oitment was on machines with remote pressure taps where some bright spark had reconnected the test lines to the wrong places after something like a transmission or converter replacement.
Mounting the gauges on a bar for a home-made setup would be a good idea.

 

[Cmark]

I'd rather spend an hour tapping the rack back and forwards then riving out the bonnets. The rack has a tiny bit of movement, so I suspect there is a plunger(s) stuck. Let's hope I can jar them loose, so I can position the rack in the centre and remove the bonnets & plungers the normal way.

Nothing wrong with that plan. Just remember to break the element retainers loose whilst the pump is still on the engine. If anyone is interested, on the "old scroll" pump, you can get to both ends of the rack with the pump in situ.

If we're optimistically jumping forward to troubleshooting the hystat, my choice of gauges is the standard Cat bottom entry offering. Nice quality and a good price and availability. I don't favour the Cat hoses though. I find them a bit bulky. I prefer to couple the gauges with the Parker microbore style hoses.

 

[Bluox]

Nothing wrong with that plan. Just remember to break the element retainers loose whilst the pump is still on the engine. If anyone is interested, on the "old scroll" pump, you can get to both ends of the rack with the pump in situ.

If we're optimistically jumping forward to troubleshooting the hystat, my choice of gauges is the standard Cat bottom entry offering. Nice quality and a good price and availability. I don't favour the Cat hoses though. I find them a bit bulky. I prefer to couple the gauges with the Parker microbore style hoses.

I had to buy some of the test fittings they use on processor heads and the hyd. shop carries what you are talking about.
Picked up some of their hoses, can roll up a 6 footer and put in my shirts pocket.
Bob

 

[kshansen]

I had to buy some of the test fittings they use on processor heads and the hyd. shop carries what you are talking about.
Picked up some of their hoses, can roll up a 6 footer and put in my shirts pocket.
Bob

You have to keep in mind that you are measuring pressure and not flow, so yes in most cases thin tubing is just fine as long as it is rated with a safety margin for the pressures you are testing for on the machine.

 

[Len220]

They will water even more when you discover 6V-4157 is only the box with the gauges in it. There is another number (could be 6V-4158 but don’t quote me) that contains all the test hoses and couplings, adapters, pressure taps, etc, required to actually connect the test box to a machine. Last time I looked that group was about half the price of a test box. I think it’s called something like a “hose & fittings group”.

Thanks for that info, Nige.
I started this before the last ½ doz posts, but I’ll post it anyway.

In regard to working thru the procedure for troubleshooting and setting up the hydrostatic transmission (HT):

1. Are the test nipples on the hydrostatic transmission the same as the nipple on the fuel pump manifold (sorry no photo ATM - sits between #6 bonnet valve and return fuel line outlet ). It looks like a miniature version of hydraulic couplers found on small track-loaders or excavators. I think they’re called “Flat Face couplers”. The one on the FIP is about ½ - ⅚” OD. In most of the photos of 3306 FIPs on the Internet, there is a simple plug installed in this location. (I haven’t gone looking for the HT test points yet.)
   
2. I suspect these test couplers are called Flat Face G¼ (Internet browsing) and the ♀︎ couplers are available aftermarket. Is it a proposition to fabricate the test hoses myself, or get them made-up ? (I think the last few posts answer that - thanks all.)
3. I note the test kit has only 3 gauges - 3500 and 8,700 psi and a differential pressure gauge. I glean from the HT section of the service manual (SENR5365 Mar ’95) that I will probably need the following pressure gauges - 50, 100, 600 psi plus the 2 higher pressure gauges mentioned above and a differential gauge up to 200 psi. (Reminds me of an Air Speed Indicator in an aircraft - just a differential pressure gauge, with different scale units.)
4. How many gauges would be conveniently connected at the same moment, while working thru the HT testing and adjustment (without being too tedious removing/installing) and thus how many hoses and what length ? (I note the suggestions of setting up a display bar.)

Going thru the HT System Operation, Testing & adjustment manual, reminds me of my head spinning when I first read it 2 years ago … still does.

In regard to the FIP, many of the described procedures in the service manuals with Cat tools, you can understand what is being achieved. In some cases I’d be prepared to have a go with my own made up tools. The trouble is that for some procedures you need to undertake it with the special Cat tools just to appreciate what is intended.

 

[Nige]

Sorry I got my wires crossed on that test group. I was thinking of the transmission test box (see Bob's post above).
The contents of the 6V-4157 Test Group are listed below. There are a total of 9 gauges but only 3 different Part Numbers. Any of the part Numbers listed below should pop up on a Google search so you can see exactly what they are.

 

[Nige]

FYI I don't see any differential pressure gauges in that list above.
8T0855 is 0-4,000kPa (580psi)
8T0861 is 0-60,000kPa (8700psi)
8T0863 is 0-250kPa (36psi)

 

[Nige]

I note the test kit has only 3 gauges - 3500 and 8,700 psi and a differential pressure gauge.

Penny has dropped. The 8T-0839 differential pressure gauge is contained in the 1U-5470 Engine Pressure Gp, NOT in the 6V-4157 Test Gp.

 

[Cmark]

The hydrostat troubleshooting can be largely carried out with one 580 psi gauge. There's a bit of tedious starting and stopping the engine and jiggery-pokery changing the gauge connector around involved, but it can be done. It's quicker and simpler with two or three gauges connected simultaneously but not worth the extra money if it's a one-off gig for you. The 8700 psi gauge is only needed if you get into the high pressure loop, but problems aren't as common here. The 36 psi one is for checking motor case drain pressure and you will probably only need it if the machine won't move at all.

As far as the FIP goes, if you haven't disturbed any of the adjusting screws or replaced any springs, just put it back together as it was and it should be good enough.

 

[Len220]

FYI I don't see any differential pressure gauges in that list above.
8T0855 is 0-4,000kPa (580psi)
8T0861 is 0-60,000kPa (8700psi)
8T0863 is 0-250kPa (36psi)

Yeah, sorry about that. Did a search for 6V4157 on the Internet which came up with 1U5796 on ch-part.com.
Jumped in without reading closely and also because a lot of the procedures in HT System Operation, Testing & Adjustment manual (SENR5365 Mar ’95) mentions differential pressures.
The differential pressure gauge in that group was 1U5793. All a moot point.
Those gauges and the number of each in your previous post make sense when you read thru the manual. Thanks.

 

[Len220]

The hydrostat troubleshooting can be largely carried out with one 580 psi gauge. There's a bit of tedious starting and stopping the engine and jiggery-pokery changing the gauge connector around involved, but it can be done. It's quicker and simpler with two or three gauges connected simultaneously but not worth the extra money if it's a one-off gig for you. The 8700 psi gauge is only needed if you get into the high pressure loop, but problems aren't as common here. The 36 psi one is for checking motor case drain pressure and you will probably only need it if the machine won't move at all.

Makes sense when reading the manual. Great advice. Doesn't cost a lot for a few aftermarket gauges and no doubt some would be better with different length hoses. Assume 600 psi might be an odd range, so my choices might be limited. Being retired and this a restoration project I can progress slowly thru the diagnostic and trouble shooting steps one at a time. I do have some serious work for it. A 30,000 m3 earth tank. I say “tank” rather than a dam because it is a hole in the ground and the earth to be spread and levelled around it. Due to putting topsoil aside and bringing it back, I’ll probably handle about 50,000 m3. Some friends believe I should use a scraper, but not so easy with a 15m deep hole and 3:1 batters. I also have a 75t excavator (see avatar) which I may use when I get deep ?

As far as the FIP goes, if you haven't disturbed any of the adjusting screws or replaced any springs, just put it back together as it was and it should be good enough.

Yeah, good advice and makes sense. Haven’t interfered with any settings.
As long as the engine achieves correct revs in various scenarios.

 

[Nige]

Assume 600 psi might be an odd range,

500psi might not be so odd - and probably cheaper. In general you are going to be measuring pressures probably up to maybe 400psi. You've got the specs in the manual, what do they say.?
If you go with aftermarket gauges just make sure they are glycerine-filled. It takes away the needle vibrations and makes pressures easier to read.

 

[Len220]

500psi might not be so odd - and probably cheaper. In general you are going to be measuring pressures probably up to maybe 400psi. You've got the specs in the manual, what do they say.?
If you go with aftermarket gauges just make sure they are glycerine-filled. It takes away the needle vibrations and makes pressures easier to read.

As per Data Recording Sheet on p.117 & 118:
Case press - 0-2 psi
Drive press - 200 +40/-15; 5500±300; 500+200 psi ... depends what test you’re doing.
Charge press - 200 +40/-15; 125 psi min.
Servo supply press - 355±10 psi
Brake press. 0-10 below charge press.

Bearing in mind that it's not a good idea to take gauges to max. deflection and looking at that list:
Couple 20 psi, couple 300 psi, couple 500 psi, couple 1000 psi, couple 8000 psi ? 500 would do for the 300, but if I have to purchase them, may as well have 300 psi for the better resolution.
I have some old (read “quality”) test gauges in a kit I picked up at a clearing sale 30+years ago.
Just ducked out to the shed:
120, 300 psi - 2" old style with easy read psi scale.
200 psi - 3" Empeo made in Germany
500, 3000 psi - 4" flange gauges with larger psi scale, Empeo made in Germany.
60 psi - 2½" glycerine
500 psi - probably for refrigeration work
200 psi digital
15 psi - 40mm gauge for measuring turbo boost.
Obviously some of these gauges will be unsuitable.
Range of threads. Probably ⅛ and ¼ BSP, but my luck some may be NPT. The large German gauges look about ⅜ pipe thread size and are parallel, so who knows what they may be ?

I also have a couple metres of high pressure grease line off a WA600 loader. Some reward for being a hoarder.

Pipe threads and grease nipple threads … Oh joy !
I help my brother service his Kubota U55-4 and SVL75.
The excavator, between the machine, the tilting hitch and some of the tools, we’ve found grease nipples with metric, BSP and NPT threads !
Some times I wonder if it could be easier if the Germans had won the war !

 

[Len220]

Pump bush wrench - 8T5287 and Bonnet Extractor - 8S2244 arrived today.



Now I need to get the machine home.