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CAT 420D Brake issues, need help diagnosing

angelsairman

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
13
Location
New Hampshire
Have a 420D backhoe with about 3700hours on it. The Rear diff never having been serviced starting chattering so it was brought to my attention. When it arrived at the garage it you also had to "pump up" the brakes 1-2 times to get them to work unless you had used them in the last 15 seconds. It was the same when i seperated the pedals. I dropped the rear diff oil. Refilled with CAT additive. Checked all brake lines and fluid levels. Bled the brakes several times on both sides. The chattering is subsiding but the braking is still an issue with having to be pumped up. We do not have a shop manual, although we should. I got ahead of myself and didnt get a sample when i dropped the rear oil. Im leaning towards condemning the brakes and having them serviced. As I poked around a bit more i relized that there is a crossover tube that connects both brake cylinders. Is it possible that only one side is bad but its bleeding back through that tube? Can i remove it and cap them and see if it goes away on one side? Anyone have any experience with CAT braking systems? Am I going in the right direction? Im not missing some kind of vaccum line am I?? Anyone have a manual for sale cheap??!!:usa
 

Cmark

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
3,178
Location
Australia
If the machine has 3700 hours and the rear axle oil has never been changed, then your brakes are probably shot. They are never too tolerant of extended oil changes, so 3700hrs is waaaaay over the top. Well done though for being up-front with your confession, it maked the diagnosis a lot easier!

An easy way to confirm the problem is to clamp the brake hoses using vise grips or similar where they go to the rear axle. If you then get a good hard pedal, it's an axle strip.

On the plus side, it's not that bad of a job. Don't attempt to do it in situ. Remove the axle from the machine, lay one of the wheels on the floor and stand the axle up in it. You can the repair one side then turn the axle over to repair the other.

Good luck....
 

surfer-joe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
Arizona
Yeah, I'd say your brakes are shot. Surprised that you didn't get a bunch of debris and metal out of the Diff when you drained the oil. The oil probably didn't look too good, did it?

Read my other post here on 416/420 differentials. It's around here someplace.
 

angelsairman

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
13
Location
New Hampshire
Thanks for the imput. Ill try clamping the lines to confirm it this coming week. Sadly Im the fleet mechanic for this company and came into the position after a almost non existant PMP. SO most things get my hands on take alot of TLC or are hard broke due to lack of solid PM. But its job security for me and they dont mind spending the money to make it right. Its just getting them on board to let me go over the equipment BEFORE things happens rather then after. But seems common in the civilian world to do it the backward more expensive way when it comes to PM. SURFER I coulnt locate your post on the diffs. I had another 420 come in yesterday for a "tranny leak" turned out to be the thermostat housing to head gasket leaking coolant. This one has 4500 with nothing ever changed but oil air and fuel filters... They said they would make sure it didnt run out of coolant as they were taking it today for another job. LMFAO.... ANyways im off to play mechanic for the last day this week. Thanks guys!:usa
 

cymro

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
23
Location
WALES GB
Hi angelsairman, had same problem of having to pump the brake pedal on a 438d we had, fitted a master cylinder repair kit and problem was sorted.
 

dirtdeviltx

New Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
2
Location
Bayside, TX
Occupation
Construction Co owner
Have the same problem with my 416B. Rebuilt the brakes, but can't seem to get a solid pedal after installing a new master cyl. I have verified that there is no air in the lines at all points. Brakes check out good and have solid pedal after about three pumps with no loss of fluids in the res. Anyone have any suggestions??
 

WayneS

New Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
4
Location
California
I have a 2005 420 d and had the same problem. I installed 2 new master cylinders and that didn't do a thing. I took it to cat and they said the brakes were worn out. i've had Case backhoes that ran for 7,000 hrs without a brake job. When Cat dissembled the rear end, they told me that some of the steels (plates in between the ones that have lining on them were made out of a softer metal. Therefore they failed prematurely. I had about 3,000 hrs when mine failed. Good luck Wayne
 

surfer-joe

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
Arizona
Cat 416/420/430 etc brakes are known to be fast wearing and exceptionally dirty. There is no filter on the oil in the compartment and there is only about five gallons total. Thus no clean oil and no cooling.

In situations where brakes are used maybe more than normal or in roading long distances, the oil gets very hot and breaks down, thus no lubricity. The discs and plates get exceptionally hot and expand. That creates more friction. The result is poor longevity in the brakes, and the differential as well, as it's all shared hot and dirty oil in the compartment. I have seen these brakes fail in as little as two hundred hundred operating hours. The best I ever got out of them, rebuilt with the different lining material, was about 3700 hours.

One of the things you can do, is change the diff/brake compartment oil every 250 hours when you also change the engine oil. You can also instruct your operators to stay off the brakes as much as possible, and avoid long distance roading.

To repair, you can purchase replacement parts from New Holland, for some of their loader/backhoes share the same differential and brake assemblies. I have found their parts in the past to be a little cheaper than those from Cat.

Of course, if you have failure before your warranty is up, by all means head back to the Cat house and tell them to come out and fix it.

You can also purchase aftermarket brake discs from a firm that also sells the same type of lining for clutches. I believe they are out of Cleveland, but when their brake lining wears, as it will of course, it does not produce the type of material that wears out everything else in the compartment. Thus the brakes housings and pistons generally come out in reusable condition, also the steel plates and all the differential parts.

I managed a fleet of these machines in California, and had enough of them that I kept a rebuilt spare axle handy, which we rebuilt in our shop. I had a field man that could change out axle assemblies in about 30-40 minutes, vs several hours or days to remove, throughly clean, rebuild and reinstall them.

I might mention here that when rebuilding these components after they have basically been destroyed by wear, that the entire assembly has to come off the machine and be stripped down to nothing. All new bearings and seals must be installed and usually the entire brake assemblies and the differential assembly. You can not reuse old brakes plates with new discs or vice versa. That way you still have excessive wear, which causes a sloppy first brake application untill all the slack is taken out.

I have seen these brakes rebuilt with old plates and new discs, with one additional plate installed to take the assembly back within dimensions. But I don't advise this unless you are, or have a very competent mechanic who can measure accurately. Even then I don't believe I'd sanction it. But a poor boy outfit might want to.

Just before I got out of the industry, I'd heard that Cat was using a new brake material that supposedly did not wear out every thing else. I don't know for sure if that is still available or even if it ever was.

Good Luck!
 

DMoline

Active Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Gardnerville, Nevada
Hello, new member here. I had to crawl out from under my rock on this one. I currently own 2 Cat hoes. A B model with 6800 hrs and a C model with 4900 hrs. Both all wheel steer with ZF diffs. Never any brake issues. My first Cat hoe was a 1986 A model I sold in 2001 to one of my GCs. 10,000+ hours when I sold it no brake issues. It still works light duty for the GC and no brake issues. Just my own experience. I like Cat hoes.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
I'm not sure if this will help Wayne but I think it's noteworthy. I own a 416C that I bought new in '97. SMU now reads over 12,000 hours. I have replaced the brakes 2x. For me the service life is around 5 or 6 thousand hours. I have always changed my oils, including the rear diff, on schedule. On the last change I installed the Cat updated brakes. They are made with Kevlar and require different oil in the diff. Usually when the break linnings go bad brake fluid gets pushed into the rear diff when the brakes are applied. When it gets bad enough the pedal will slowly travel until it bottoms out under constant foot pressure. The last clue will be that the oil in the brake master cylinder reserviour will be low or, at some point, gone all together.
 
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