CAT 225 Excavator issue

[etd66ss]

Hello all,

I bought a CAT 225 in 2009, used it for about 500 hours logging and digging 3 ponds on some personally owned property. The previous owner had replaced the 3208 with a reman some years before I bought the machine. He said he had to make special motor mount brackets for the back of the engine: http://i.imgur.com/gzehItg.jpg http://i.imgur.com/W9ZOGiz.jpg.

For whatever reason, he put 3/8" thick bar under the pump drive housing mounting locations. On the front of the engine, it doesn't look like he changed anything: http://i.imgur.com/oRs5sWn.jpg.

The previous owner told me after replacing the 3208, the new engine would overheat, so to remedy that problem he raised the hood above the exhaust on some standoff's: http://i.imgur.com/4Dw3AbY.jpg.

I used the machine like this for many years, but it always bothered me. Now I would like to get to the bottom of the issue.

I decided I would like to replace the 4 blade fan with a 6 blade fand from the supplemental cooling group, you can see the 2 fans here: http://i.imgur.com/O8wt62Z.jpg.

This past weekend I tried to change out the fans, when I did, the 6 blade fan was hitting the welded on shroud of the radiator on the bottom, but had 1" of clearance on the top: http://i.imgur.com/HysVgmN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/BmmaTsE.jpg.

So, the openning in the shroud is not centered with the rotational axis of the water pump.

I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what is amiss. The parts book for the engine mounting shows no spacers at either the front or back of the engine to lift it up 1/2" : http://i.imgur.com/7lQcvuT.png.

Looking at the radiator, I thought that it might be aftermarket, as it was made by GTI (General Thermodynamics Inc.) : http://i.imgur.com/wpzm44W.jpg http://i.imgur.com/QwRbmmt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/I8SvwF0.jpg http://i.imgur.com/w2iJM70.jpg.

I talked to GTI applications engineering dept. and they said they made these OEM for Caterpillar company. So, it is not aftermarket.

So this leaves me wondering, why is there this 1/2" discrepancy? I'm trying to get this 6 blade fan on to see if I can put the hood down and run the machine without it overheating. At one point in time I did put the hood down with the 4 blade fan, and while working on one of my ponds, the machine did overheat, put the hood back up, and everything was fine.

So I am still left with the following questions after my investigation into the issue:

1) Has any other 225 51U owner have this radiator shroud issue?

2) Why would a 3208 that replaced a 3208 need those special engine mounts on the back near the pump drive?

3) Why would a reman 3208 overheat unless the hood was raised?

I hope someone can shed soem light on my issue.

 

[etd66ss]

Well, I can't edit the above post and the hyperlinks went all fubar... Links to the pictures still works however.

 

[Cmark]

First of all, need your full serial number to be accurate. Next, a 3N2913 radiator does fit some 225s. Next, to answer your questions;

1) Don't know.

2) A different bellhousing and/or mounts and/or front trunnion was fitted.

3) The first thing to check is the baffles and seals around the outside edges of the radiator. If these are missing, hot air will recirculate through the radiator core.

 

[etd66ss]

Full serial number is 51U2607

My excavator did not come with the supplemental cooling group, which included a larger core radiator (1N4343), a 6 blade fan (3N2444) vs. the 4 blade (2N2363), and louvered doors on the right rear where the exhaust and HYD pumps are located.

When I took the radiator out, all the baffles were in place except for the lower one (6N4185), it was just lying by the batteries and the rubber is all degraded. In fact, I plan to rebuild all the baffles with new rubber sheet.

Unfortunately when I was taking off the panel assembly (2V832) above the radiator the baffle caught on the firewall assembly and I dropped the panel assembly (which is pretty heavy) on the top radiator tank, it only left a small dent, but it looks like the force of that impact cracked the core flange at the bottom due to the brazing of the shroud to the tank: http://i.imgur.com/Qh4tvSj.png

So now I am looking at a radiator repair (If I am unable to solder it up myself) or a re-core.

I looked to see if the shroud could be moved down ~1/2" if/when it is taken apart for a re-core, but I don't think so. I think it would hit the lower hose nipple: http://i.imgur.com/vXe8oL1.jpg

To me, the front engine mount looks legit, though it was missing one bolt and the other was loose, I already got the correct hardware from CAT for both the front & rear engine mounting. Once it's power washed I'll take a closer look at why those jerry-rigged spacers are on the pump drive housing, and make sure the front engine mount is the correct 9N121 part.

All I intended to do was put the 6 blade fan I bought on the machine and put the hood back down to see if it would stay cooled, but ofc, it has turned into a much bigger job.

 

[Cmark]

So it looks like you've got three separate problems;

1. Radiator leak. Needs fixing, obviously.

2. Fan not running concentric to the shroud. Something has clearly got mixed up in the previous engine change. If the fan can be made to run concentric by using shims under the engine mounts or whatever, then on an old machine like this then that, IMO is fine.

3. Overheating. Looking at your location it doesn't seem that you get the tropically hot ambient temps that would warrant the supplemental cooling arrangement. I would recommend fixing up the radiator baffles as previously mentioned and checking the crank and fan pulley part numbers so you are getting the correct fan speed.

 

[etd66ss]

Thanks for the pulley check recommendation, I have not thought of that yet. Interestingly enough, I bought replacement fan belts that were direct replacements for the belts in my parts manual, but they didn't fit, they were too short. If the crank pulley was to large, the fan would spin faster than it should, if the water pump/fan pulley was too large, the fan would spin slower than it should. I do notice the water pump is not painted yellow like the rest of the engine.

I'm leery about raising the engine 1/2" and getting something else out of whack, but it might be what I have to do ultimately...

I can show a few pics of the bellhousing sitting right on the frame like the parts book shows: http://www.acmoc.org/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=58110&d=1456089281 http://www.acmoc.org/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=58111&d=1456089292

So these spacers are still confusing to me: http://www.acmoc.org/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=39146&d=1378248980 http://www.acmoc.org/bb/attachment.php?attachmentid=39147&d=1378248990

 

[etd66ss]

Interesting, if I compare the fan pulley on my excavator: http://i.imgur.com/yIzqxce.jpg to this one on eBay: http://i.imgur.com/9yvpqmg.png

It almost looks like mine might be a larger diameter pulley.

 

[repowerguy]

Is this a Cat reman or a Jasper reman? At a former job we had some trucks with Jasper remans and they all ran hot under a load. I always assumed it to be the .040 bore job Jasper put in them. Similar trucks with standard bore blocks never overheated. Just a thought.

 

[etd66ss]

This might be a better pulley comparison: http://i.imgur.com/Bs0lE9j.png

I'll know for sure when I am not sitting at this desk at work.

 

[etd66ss]

Is this a Cat reman or a Jasper reman? At a former job we had some trucks with Jasper remans and they all ran hot under a load. I always assumed it to be the .040 bore job Jasper put in them. Similar trucks with standard bore blocks never overheated. Just a thought.

I have no idea. didn't get that info when I bought the machine. I do know that I have no serial number tag on the rocker cover, nor does the sticker say "Remanufactured 3208" etc. It's just the normal 3208 sticker.

 

[Nige]

I have no idea. didn't get that info when I bought the machine. I do know that I have no serial number tag on the rocker cover, nor does the sticker say "Remanufactured 3208" etc. It's just the normal 3208 sticker.

If it was a factory rebuild it would have "Cat Reman" in big letters on the rocker cover. The only other genuine option would be a dealer rebuild (although in your OP you say it was a reman) in which case their would be no mention of Reman. I know it's been a while since you bought it but could the previous owner be of any assistance in establishing the provenance of the engine..?

 

[etd66ss]

If it was a factory rebuild it would have "Cat Reman" in big letters on the rocker cover. The only other genuine option would be a dealer rebuild (although in your OP you say it was a reman) in which case their would be no mention of Reman. I know it's been a while since you bought it but could the previous owner be of any assistance in establishing the provenance of the engine..?

Yeah, it's very hard from memory exactly what the mechanic told me (Now that I look back through my email, I see I bought the machine in 2006, so 10 years ago!). He may have just said "rebuilt". I may try to contact the previous owner yes, but I bought it from a construction company that I'm not even sure is in business anymore (I think they went belly up in the 2008 financial crisis), but it's worth looking into.

I checked the water pump pulley on my engine last night, it is the correct 9N3899 part number: http://i.imgur.com/shlLNNw.jpg?1 However it measures 5-5/8" diameter, where the one on eBay looks to be 5-1/4" : http://i.imgur.com/9yvpqmg.png, but I guess I can't trust a measurement from a tape measure with a bite taken out of it...

EDIT: I looked back through my email records when I bought the machine. A CAT dealer salesmen is who worked the deal for me. I asked him if there were any 225's in the area for sale, and he convinced one of his customers to sell me the 225, even though a set of chains was "just" put on it.

Excerpts from that email:

ME: "Customer claims in the past few years the engine has been rebuilt, and so have the pumps. Do you know if Milton CAT took care of these repairs, and records? Also a new UC (except pads), it's now at 80%."

CAT Dealer salesman: "I don't know what was done to the engine or who did the repairs. I would be very surprised if we had any records of the repairs, Milton only has 5 years of Syracuse Supply history. "

ME: "I noticed this morning in the pictures the engine cover jacked up in the air. What's going on with that, engine overheat problems?"

CAT Dealer salesman: "This customer is a bright guy, he found that the unit ran cooler during the summer with the panel raised."

So looking at the emails, the customer and/or salesman didn't actually tell me it overheated, just that it "ran cooler". I guess looking back, I was taken for a bit of a ride.

 

[etd66ss]

I separated the shroud from the radiator today. It seems as though it has already had a re-core. The lower mount was originally riveted to the shroud, but whoever did the re-core just welded it all up. They didn't have it at the correct height, it was off by about 1/8" or so. It was off that little bit because it looks like they use a cut up mud flap or something for the rubber seal that goes between the lower mounting bracket and the lower tank, it's too thick.

I put the shroud back in the machine with the 3N2444 fan to see if it would clear. I'll use bolts and weld nuts to mount the bracket to the shroud, the bolts in there now are just temporary. You can see from the following pictures, the fan doesn't hit but it is very close on the bottom, and I am still missing the mounting dampers. The original CAT rivet holes line up now, so maybe this is as centered as the fan ever got from the factory...

Here's the pics: http://imgur.com/a/0GrQQ

 

[lantraxco]

Don't know what's missing in the front mount area, but I have never EVER seen an equipment engine hard bolted in. Gotta be missing some rubber isolation of some kind, mounts, cushions strips, something. That might make up your 1/2". 6N3256 ?

 

[etd66ss]

Don't know what's missing in the front mount area, but I have never EVER seen an equipment engine hard bolted in. Gotta be missing some rubber isolation of some kind, mounts, cushions strips, something. That might make up your 1/2". 6N3256 ?

View attachment 153390

I've looked at the engine mounting pages many times in my parts book : http://i.imgur.com/7lQcvuT.png I just don't see anything but bolts, nuts, washers & steel spacers.

 

[lantraxco]

Huh? Well nobody ever said CAT was smart, just good marketers.

 

[etd66ss]

I'm not sure I see the need for rubber isolators/engine mounts in an excavator. There is no drivetrain torque, the engine is just spinning hydraulic pumps. Maybe newer CAT excavators have rubber mounts though, don't know...

 

[Dapperdan16]

I'm not sure I see the need for rubber isolators/engine mounts in an excavator. There is no drivetrain torque, the engine is just spinning hydraulic pumps. Maybe newer CAT excavators have rubber mounts though, don't know...

My 1983 Cat 225 serial number 76u03957 definitely has two rubber bushings/mounts on the pump drive housing "it supports the rear of the engine" don't know if this helps you at all. Danny

 

[etd66ss]

My 1983 Cat 225 serial number 76u03957 definitely has two rubber bushings/mounts on the pump drive housing "it supports the rear of the engine" don't know if this helps you at all. Danny

Does that machine have a 3304 engine?

 

[Dapperdan16]

Does that machine have a 3304 engine?

It does have the 3304. Danny