Case 580K Won't Start

[wi4x4man]

Howdy!

Well the other day we had a cold spell hit us with -35°F temperatures. I had to fire up the 580K to feed some round bales as my other loader does NOT like that sort of cold.

I went out there, gave a little squirt of ether, and she fired right up like usual. I was letting her sit there for a few minutes to warm up and all of a sudden she started to act kind of funny and then died. I figured the fuel was gelled up, got the salamander heater out, pointed it at the LH side of the engine, and let it sit there and warm things up. After about a half hour, everything was nice and toasty and tried to fire her up, but still no luck. I tried ether again, and still nothing (except for the fact that it would run on the ether). So I called it a night and fed with small square bales.

Next day it was nice and warm (got up to 34°F!!!) and I figured it would fire up. I tried, no luck. So I started to crack lines to see what was going on. The transfer pump is putting a ton of fuel out when cranking. The line coming from the filters was spitting fuel all over. I checked the shutdown solenoid, and I was getting power (I could also hear it click).

So I figure okay, I am not getting fuel to the injectors. I cracked one of the lines and hardly anything came out. It more or less dribbled out every two seconds or so. I kept cranking the engine, and still virtually nothing was coming out.

My question... I am extremely familiar with Deere engines, but not these Cummins engines. Does it seem to everyone here that the injection pump may have crapped out? Trying to start it in that cold, perhaps something broke internal to the pump? Has anyone out there ever experienced this before? I know I need to rebuild the pump anyways because it drips fuel from the top of the pump where the throttle shaft enters. I was just hoping to wait for a rebuild until the weather warmed up.

Interesting side note, about a year ago during warm temperatures it just quit on me. No rhyme or reason, but it quit. Took some cranking, but eventually it fired right back up and ran like a top. Not sure why she died that day, but I wonder if it was a sign of things to come?

 

[Delmer]

Have you cracked injector lines before to be able to judge how much fuel comes out normally? doesn't matter what kind of engine, or kind of fuel pump much either.

The fact you have fuel even dribbling out means the pump is turning. I guess I'd make sure the throttle is turned up, crack another line or two, wait for a warm day and try it again some more. It should squirt some bubbles out the fuel lines then clear fuel, then tighten them up and it should start.

The quitting on you before was either an electrical issue, or something floating around in the tank that could still be there. that's my guess, nothing you said makes me suspicious of the injection pump. We'll see what thepumpguy says...

 

[thepumpguysc]

Might just have "floaters" in the tank.. but then again..
..u said the lift pump was pumping its azz off..{lots of fuel}
Loosen ALL the lines AT the injectors or as many as u can get to.. & crank the engine..
..fuel should be squirting out.. or at least bubbles THEN fuel..
IF you don't have anything.. do u know about the "hidden filter" in the inlet ??
IF your pump is a Delphi/CAV DPA pump..{3042-780} it has 1.. google it

 

[Tinkerer]

If it helps any this is the prime procedure from the service manual.

Don't forget about the inline filter.

 

[wi4x4man]

Howdy,

Thanks for the replies fellas!

When I was checking to see if the pump or filters were causing trouble, I cracked lines and oodles of fuel came out, even at the connection to the injection pump. It was more-so that hardly any fuel was coming out at the injector... I didn't crack all four, I just cracked one to see if the pump was working. When I saw that tiny bit of fuel dribbling out, I thought perhaps the pump went south given the amount of fuel that came out when I checked the lines. The thing is, is that I don't know how much normally comes out. In my mind, there should be a noticeable spray, not a dribble.

Being as cold as it was that day, I thought perhaps maybe something went bad. Of course I suppose it could have starved itself given the fact that the fuel likely gelled up.

This weekend I will get her good and toasty with the heater and crack all of the lines and see what happens. Hopefully it is just that, and the system needs to be primed. I really don't have the time to be removing the injection pump.

What makes things worse is that we just got 17" of snow and I use the hoe to clear banks. Using "Ol' Reliable" (my 4020 Deere) to move snow is not the most fun thing in the world given it has no heat... or a cab for that matter. I end up freezing my arse off as I drive past / through snow-laden branches. I end up looking like the abominable snow twit after about 20 minutes of plowing. Will let you all know what I find out. Thanks!!!

 

[thepumpguysc]

LOL snow.. I'm out in the yard, working on a New Holland tractor in short sleeves.. & sweating..

 

[Tinkerer]

wi4x4man, After you feel you have done everything suggested and have no joy, I would suggest that you scrutinize the electric shut-off solenoid. Check for full and constant voltage to it. Perhaps it is defective.
Try a new one. Even if that isn't it keeping a spare on hand is a good thing.
There is always an outside (slim) chance the ignition switch is part of the problem. I am referring to your comment about it stalling last summer. You may have more than a single issue with the fuel system.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The first sentence on post #1 just about tells the story..
I just HOPE the pump didn't seize from water gelling in the fuel.. that would suc..
Did u crack open the bleeder screw by the nameplate?? Double screw..loosen the 5/16 & crank the engine till fuel, no bubbles come out & tighten..
BE CAREFUL, that little screw will get u wet..

 

[wi4x4man]

Hello Fellas,

Well, I went through and cracked all of the injector lines and cranked and cranked and cranked. Suddenly, fuel started to ooze out of each one all around the same time.

Tightened them up, gave a shot of ether, and she spit and sputtered but came back to life.

This has never happened to me before with a full fuel tank. Best I can figure is that it was gelled up when I first tried to start it, starved, and that was it. Letting the heater sit and blow on the rig for an hour may have done the trick... Plus it is not near as cold as it was when it went kaput (almost 60 degrees warmer).

Thanks for the help guys... Kind of a rookie mistake, but very strange circumstances when I see fuel at the pump, but never anything after the pump, except for a little dribble. I knew it would be something simple too, but I often overthink things. Sometimes just discussing helps bring me back to reality.

 

[Delmer]

When did you buy the fuel? and did you treat it with anything?

If it was summer fuel, you can expect problems starting at 20, and you were a bit colder than that.

Plus if you have a floater in the tank, or debris plugging a fitting somewhere, it will be MUCH worse in the cold even if your fuel is fine, it will still be thick.

 

[wi4x4man]

It was winter when I filled the tank, but I did not have any additive in it. I did however, put Power Service 911 in it, but that was after the fact.

 

[Tinkerer]

I see you are located in Northern Wisconsin. Fuel conditioner is must have anywhere a diesel operates in extreme cold.
Be sure to buy one with an algaecide protector and a cetane booster.
An algaecide protector is necessary in warmer temperatures also.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Glad u gotr goin'.. Put some additive in the tank & don't look back..
U have A LOT more winter left, so buy more than 1 treatment bottle!!! {if ya know what I mean}
Stop by every now & then.. just don't u dare post about not being able to start your machine after a cold snap.. Lol

 

[wi4x4man]

Starting to think that little filter along the rail is causing problems. Died on me twice yesterday (Sunday) after we got slammed with 20" of white crap. I did the usual procedure and she came back to life after running for about 5 hours, but about an hour later it pooped out again. Was getting dark, gusting to 40, snow blowing everywhere, and I had enough for the day.

Went this morning and bought all new filters. Will be changing them today in the 20 mph winds and -10 temps in the middle of BFE. Yay. At least the winds are lower.

 

[wi4x4man]

Update: It was that little filter along the rail. Changed all of the filters out and no problems. I tried to blow through that little one, and I cannot believe it was even getting enough fuel to run. Wow!

What a dumb little filter.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The filters not dumb.. it was doing its job.. just think about the problems & $$$ IF it wasn't..
Glad your up & running and playin in the SNOW..
I'm riding around in my golf cart w/ shorts & a T shirt..{lol}

 

[wi4x4man]

Let me rephrase... By "dumb little filter", the point is that it should not be needed to begin with. It is obviously an afterthought, likely based on problems in the field when the machine was originally designed and produced. I only know that because I designed diesel power systems for a living for a very long time. All John Deere systems. And normally one would design a system with a filter large enough to handle total flow rate for however the long the change interval is set for.

 

[GregsHD]

That inline "filter" is a coarse mesh strainer, you can remove it and backflush to some degree, I have however seen many replaced with off the shelf inline fuel filters, if any crud is in the tank, it will plug the filter fast. Should be 1/2" fuel line? Baldwin BF7693

I personally think these strainers are better than a screen on the end of the pickup tube in tank or those silly little Japanese banjo bolt screens.

 

[GregsHD]

Looks like it's 3/8 fuel line, Baldwin BF1173

 

[Delmer]

I personally think these strainers are better than a screen on the end of the pickup tube in tank or those silly little Japanese banjo bolt screens.

I agree the filter was doing it's job, and better than some of the other places that could get plugged up.

Personally I like the idea of a screen in the tank. And the japanese banjo bolts are sometimes installed with a water seperator with a plenty adequate screen between the tank and that bolt, so they SHOULD never plug up either, until somebody takes out the water separator or designs a system and thinks they don't need the water separator.