Case 580CKB starter electrical problem...should be easy, but I'm dumb!

[Glen Weldon]

Good day.

I turn the key, the solenoid goes click but the starter doesn't turn. I remove the starter and test, the motor turns. I reinstall the starter, same thing...click, but now go. Fully charged battery, clean battery posts and new cable terminals.

Only thing I can think of is that under the dash there is a relay that's not passing juice?

This seems to be so basic but I'm at a standstill. Backhoe is in front of the barn door. Tractor (that I need to use) is in the barn. Anybody have any advice to help me get the "hoe" started again?

Thanks y'all.

 

[hosspuller]

The "click" should be the relay that connects the battery to the starter. The solenoid does two things: engages the Bendix gear to the flywheel... and connects the starter motor to the battery through a set of contacts.
When you're testing the starter off the machine are you bypassing the solenoid ? (the "clicker")
When testing, does the starter gear move forward ? If it doesn't, then it can't crank the engine.

One more thought, and most important … is the engine locked up ? you should be able to turn it over by hand with a wrench or bar.

 

[Tinkerer]

There shouldn't be any relay in a 580B starter wiring circuit. Did you clean the battery ground connection on the frame ?
Try a jumper wire from the BAT post on the starter to the small post on the solenoid. That eliminates the ignition switch and the wire that goes to the starter.
A remote starter switch would be a better option.

 

[Glen Weldon]

Thanks guys for the reply. When I tested the starter, I touched the positive jumper cable wire to the bottom (starter positive) end of the solenoid, bypassing the solenoid. I did not jump out the solenoid/starter connections. I figured the click was the solenoid pushing out the starter drive. I'll check tomorrow what happens when I jump out the two...

 

[TVA]

Could be main wire corroded inside and you not seeing this. Check the voltage at main starter lug while you trying to start. The voyage drop should be insignificant. If the voltage not dropping and solenoid serviceable, you can take it apart and check the copper contacts, sometimes I flip them to unused ( if it’s possible) side if they are burned.
Or replace solenoid.
Another crucial check is wear of bronze bushing at the and of the shaft - if that worn out the rotor touches the stator and creates short.

 

[Cbait580b]

Like TVA said.. Test the solenoid better..sounds like it's trying to kick the drive out but not sending current thru to the starter motor. Taking the cap off u can sometimes clean the contacts and get it working.

 

[DMiller]

Sounds like a burnt contact plate in the solenoid

 

[Glen Weldon]

I forgot to mention this starter was rebuilt less than 6mo. ago. I suppose the solenoid could be bad. I have another I could try.

TVA, The positive battery wire is very old. I thought about replacing it.

Just to make sure I understand correctly, could someone go over again how to test the solenoid?

 

[DMiller]

A bad cable will drop voltage, basic rule of electric Volts down Amps UP, higher amp draw will cook what you do not want cooked.

 

[Delmer]

Rebuilt can mean a few different things, I didn't see the inside or what was done, so I can't comment on how long it should last.

I would test it by hooking test leads to the big terminal on the solenoid that the pos battery cable hooks to, and the other lead to the mounting plate of the starter where it bolts to the block. That voltage while you are trying to crank will tell you whether to look at the solenoid/starter, or battery/cables. If the voltages stays above 12v then the contacts in the solenoid aren't making contact, or the starter is "open". Move that lead to the big terminal on the starter (other side of solenoid) and repeat, that will tell you if it's the solenoid or starter that is open.

If the battery voltage drops below 9v during the first cranking test, then move your leads to the battery to see what voltage it maintains while cranking, then the leads to see which one is dropping the voltage.

The only complication is if the battery drops to 8V and the starter has the same voltage, then you need to swap a known good battery, jump it, load test the starter, check that the engine turns over freely etc.

 

[DMiller]

If you hear high pitch squealing let off the start switch.

 

[Gilbert603]

My starter is cooked, I actually just pulled it off today to confirm if it’s 9 or 10 teeth for when I order the replacement.
Can you guys recommend a good brand?
There’s tons online to choose from, anywhere from $70 to $250.
Also, could you guys give me your opinion on my ring gear. Looks fine to me, no major damage, with normal wear, I think anyways?
Is it ok to put a pry bar in there and rotate it that way? All new to me, I don’t want to cause any damage.

 

[Gilbert603]

Here’s the starter. Looks like normal wear?

 

[Tinkerer]

Ring gear is ok if all the teeth look that way.
Starter pinion is like new. They have a bevel edge when new to assist the gear mesh with the ring gear.

 

[Tinkerer]

Ring gear is ok if all the teeth look like that.
I'm not too keen on prying on ring gear teeth. After double checking that the engine cannot start I would rotate the engine with the fan blades.
Your starter pinion gear is looking good ! The teeth are beveled to assist it to mesh with the ring-gear.
If your starter is beyond being able to be rebuilt I would suggest that you use another Delco-Remy #110990 for a replacement.

 

[Gilbert603]

Thank you. I’ll let you know how it goes

 

[Gilbert603]

One more thing. My service manual says to enegerize the starter on a bench to measure the pinion clearance. Is this really necessary?

 

[Tinkerer]

One more thing. My service manual says to enegerize the starter on a bench to measure the pinion clearance. Is this really necessary?

Yes, definitely.

 

[Old Mike]

this is old Mike here. I've owned and worked on lots of Case backhoes. The most amount of troubles I've had was with the starter switches. They don't last forever, even if we think they should. The power going from the switch to the starter has no relay, and the power necessary to trigger the solenoid is quite high. If you don't believe me, make sure the tractor is in neutral and the E brake is locked up tight. Get a screw driver and short the starter battery cable to the solenoid connection. You will get a good spark and the starter will turn over unless its broken inside. The key or pushbutton switch wears out and wont make a good connection when it gets old. I've gone through a half dozen push buttons because the spark you see shorting the solenoid also takes place inside the switch or push button. It takes quite a lot of voltage and current to activate the solenoid. The cure is to get a new switch, and then add a Ford external type solenoid from an older Ford car to the line to the Starter Solenoid connection. You can even use a riding lawn mower solenoid , but they don't last long and don't use a solenoid that is normally closed or on. Make sure it normally off. One other big problem with all tractors is vibration and poor wiring. The older Case machines are known for this. Sometimes a wire breaks internally and arcs inside and intermittently fails and then fails completely. So new thicker lower number wires with fine wires inside makes them last longer. Also banding the wires through a loom or taping them together in electrical tape and using wire ties can cut vibration some and wires last longer. You can also use a newer gear drive starter that takes a lot less solenoid power to operate. They sell them on EBAY for about $119 at this time (2021) Tractors weren't made to live this long but the prices are to crazy high that making your tractors and trucks and cars is sort of critical nowadays. Good luck guys!

 

[melben]

Ring gear is ok if all the teeth look like that.
I'm not too keen on prying on ring gear teeth. After double checking that the engine cannot start I would rotate the engine with the fan blades.
Your starter pinion gear is looking good ! The teeth are beveled to assist it to mesh with the ring-gear.
If your starter is beyond being able to be rebuilt I would suggest that you use another Delco-Remy #110990 for a replacement.