case 580c engine advice

[fred580c]

Just got may first backhoe on a barter. After working on it for couple days I found the camshaft is broken flush with the front of the engine where the gear is mounted. There is tooth damage to the camshaft gear teeth which appears to be from the hydry pump (1 1/4") gear on top left. So, my dilemma is that I am not a real mechanic and would like advice as to what to do. I know someone who can replace the camshaft for me but what else should I do while im in there....do buy a rebuild engine to replace it? let him just replace the cam, do I do the lifters/push rods/ pistons etc. Im not sure. also, did the cam break because there was too much force on the hydro pump or what? I will welcome all opinions!

 

[Tinkerer]

Also, did the cam break because there was too much force on the hydro pump or what? I will welcome all opinions!

The hydraulic pump should not have caused the camshaft failure. Unless something in the pump is broken and caused it to seize up.

Giving good advise to you is difficult, actually impossible without details in regards to the running condition of the engine prior to the camshaft failure. A sheared camshaft like you describe is unusual. A broken off tooth from a gear could cause that. If you have never have seen or heard it run I think replacing the camshaft along with all the damaged gears that drive it would be the thing to do. You will need to remove the oil pan and clean it along with the engine oil pump screen. The extent of the work and money spent will depend on how much you want to gamble as far as taking the engine apart again after you get it running and find that you have worn out valves,valve guides and piston rings.

 

[Bill Smith]

The hard part about this is you have to get the engine running to find out if there are other problems with the machine .Transmission, Torque converter, Trans axcel , Hydraulic leaks , etc etc etc .

 

[fred580c]

bill and tinker

The hard part about this is you have to get the engine running to find out if there are other problems with the machine .Transmission, Torque converter, Trans axcel , Hydraulic leaks , etc etc etc .

You both are correct, and I do not have a bunch of money to sink into this machine. the story is that it was running and driving fine, and the operator got off the machine to talk to someone and it stopped running. I have reason to believe that is true. Is it worth spending $5000 on a rebuild engine or should I rebuild the one I have?

 

[Tinkerer]

$5000.00 no. If you are capable of doing the work required to do a complete in or out of frame overhaul you should be able to overhaul it for 1/2 that price. That would include the machine work you may need to hire a shop to do. If it was running fine prior to the camshaft failure and it only needs a camshaft, front gears and gaskets, that would be substantially less.

 

[sheepfoot]

It is not uncommon for this, it happens more than most would think. The 188 and 207 engines in the forklifts and backhoe's have that safety built in to shut the engine off if the power steering pump runs out of oil or locks up. You may get out cheap with a head service, push rods, camshaft and gear, p/s pump. Once the head is off you may find piston and heavy valve damage also.
Most of the machines with this damage are caused by a leaking power steering hose or steering cylinder packing that has leaked the fluid out of the reservoir and allowed to dry or a lockup of the pump itself. If you do the repair yourself, make sure you note the oil passage bolt in the rocker arm bridge, it has a drilled hole for lube to the top end, must go back in the same hole. I would look at the lower end also while your in it. Any clue on hrs on it?

 

[fred580c]

sheepfoot

It says it has 1318 hours, i'm almost certain this has rolled over at least once given the year or it does not work at all. I really hate to do a half a** job repairing it cause i'm short on money, I think I will just hold off for now until I can save enough to do it right. If nothing else I believe this tractor weighs about 10,000 lbs. That's gotta be a couple thousand dollars in scrap metal! Thank you all for your input and good advice, you were very helpful. Mainly making me realize that this is going to be a bigger issue than I originally expected!

 

[Tinkerer]

Sheepfoot: Your info is right on about the extensive engine damage. It slipped my mind that the engine crankshaft continued to turn after the camshaft stopped when the shaft sheared. Fred most likely has quite job ahead. If the tractor and backhoe are in decent shape it is most likely worth fixing the engine.

 

[fred580c]

So, the more I think about it, I have decided to rebuild this engine myself. I have always wanted to rebuild and engine and the is a good opportunity for me to do so. If I am going to throw money away, at least I can still drive to work. Would you recommend a rebuild kit in or out. I do not have a preference either way! Just overall cost. Labor is not a factor. I would also like to minimize my specialty tool purchases. I do understand that the head will have to be taken to a shop, what else can you guys recommend? Thanks

 

[fishfighter]

If it were me, I would start first by pulling the head and dropping the oil pan to check for how much damage was done Looking at the head to check for any piston damage, rods or valves damage and check the oil pan for any metal(crankshaft bearing). By doing that, that will tell if you can do the job on the hoe or not. That all depends on how far you want to go with the rebuild and how much money you want to spend.

Before ordering a rebuild kit, it would be best to pull it down to see what is what.

 

[Tinkerer]

It depends on how good of a rebuild you want to do. Removing the engine is the only way to find everything that may need to be repaired. If you have never rebuilt an engine there are some basic things you need to know. If it has a flex plate on the flywheel, the condition of it can only be seen by splitting the engine/transmission. The flywheel may need a new ring gear. Although the crankshaft may look ok, take it to a machinist and have it checked for out of round bearing journals and the size of those journals. Look at the back of ALL the crankshaft bearings. The size of them will be stamped on the back. std (for standard) or possibly an undersize such as .010. Someone may have worked on the engine before. Replacing all of the camshaft bearings is only possible with the engine removed. Also with the block out and stripped you can do thorough job of cleaning it to like new condition. If you do remove the pistons and connecting rods be sure to replace them in the same position they were in. Pistons are usually marked indicating the forward direction. Connecting rods can be installed in the wrong position and cause major damage. If you don't have a Case service manual, that should be the first thing you get.

 

[fred580c]

My repair manual is on the way, and I will be removing the oil pan and head this week. I just got a quote from:

Dan Kornstad

Central Equipment Aftermarket & Used Parts

3008 Biddle Rd.

Medford, OR 97504

541 770 7082

888 593 8749


I just happen to see his ad in the Ag Source Magazine and his prices beat any local dealer and he seems to be a straight forward honest guy. I don't know him but he was very prompt on his quote (email) and answered the phone when I called him today....that says a lot to me!

 

[Tinkerer]

Fred; Be aware that many Case dealers are selling aftermarket parts. Agricultural and Industrial Equipment is the supplier many of them source their parts from. Be sure to question them as to whether they are pricing OEM or aftermarket products.

 

[fred580c]

Well, I decided to do just the minimum to get engine running, that way I can determine if it is worth keeping or not. So, bought a camshaft and gear on ebay for $400(new but not oem), just the gaskets I needed to re-install water pump, timing cover, oil pan ($95). replaced 2 push rods, used $32 (new ones were $50 each). The power steering pump was seized and I believe that is what was the cause of the boken camshaft. So, instead of replacing it, I took it apart and sanded down the parts on the inside so the gear would spin freely. This saves me money for now and can be replaced afterwards, after all, I just need to know if I can get it to run. So, I got it to run! and it runs great! everything works except the steering and I have may hydraulic leaks. I have decided to keep and I will slowly replace hoses and rebuild hydraulic cylinders over time! Thank you all for your help.....I am very excited!

 

[sheepfoot]

Good to hear you got it running, you should make fixing all the steering issues first. You don't need to chance that pump locking up again and having another camshaft failure or worse.