Case 580 SK won't start...

[gabtrac]

Thanks to fpgm04 for helping me with my block heater question.
But I thought I should ask about why she won't start...
My 580 SK has been sitting for about a month.
During that time the temperature dropped to about 4'C (just above freezing).
We've heated the oil pan with a torch, bled all the lines, checked the injector pipes for flow, the riser pump, checked the solenoid, used ether, heat gun in the air intake and turbo charger, changed the starter, seen no apparent leaks, and thrown enough amps at her to make her spin as fast as on hot summer day.
Still she won't start.
We get some smoke and she was kicking intermittently.
But now she only seems to kick when ether is used.
I'm heading into town to get a block heater, but I'm wondering if I need a bigger basket of parts.
Does anyone have any idea what it might be?
She ran fine before I parked her.
Much appreciated.

 

[Willie B]

Mine has many wires to the ignition switch. One white one has been plugged onto the wrong terminal. That terminal is live only when the starter is turning. Release the key, it turns power off to the injector pump.

Make sure the injector pump has power both cranking, and running.

Mine is stubborn about starting when the diesel tank is below half. Gravity seems to prime the supply pump.

Bleed air from injectors. They pop, (spray) when pressure reaches a certain level. A cushion of air will prevent pressure from rising to pop them.

Willie

 

[gabtrac]

Hi Willie B,
The key isn't used to start the machine.
When I bought the machine it, it had/has as very smart cable with a plunger type switch to turn the starter.
So, I turn the ignition to on/run and press the switch to turn her over. It's great because I can be up at the engine when she's turning over- makes it really easy to apply ether.

When you say bleed air from injectors (I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly) I loosen the 17mm nut that hold the injector supply pipe turn on the ignition and turn her over with my hand held switch until I see diesel and tighten it back up again... right?
As mentioned, there's fuel coming out the injector pipes when I loosen or take off the flared pipe/nut at the injectors.
Thanks,
a

 

[Ronsii]

Yep, if you have fuel coming out of the injector lines loosened at the injector then by all means it should start.... given it is spinning fast enough. since you are indicating the air is out of the system you should see smoke from the exhaust as you crank the engine over.



Also if you bleed all the lines and they seem good but then try to start it for a few tries and still no go you might check for air in the lines again... if there is then I would suggest air is getting pulled in the fuel system somewhere continuously and no amount of bleeding will help until you find the leak or obstruction to fuel.


Btw: A gasoline soaked rag over the air intake is much gentler on the engine than ether, just make !very sure! the rag is secured and cannot be sucked into the cylindersl.

 

[thepumpguysc]

IF you have no smoke at cranking and you have fuel AT THE INJECTORS..
Take one out, turn it upside down and hook it back up.. STAND BACK and crank the motor and SEE if its spraying..
Just because you have fuel at the injectors doesn't mean theres enough pressure to open the injector.
IF IT SPRAYS and there still isn't any smoke.. your compression may be down and you need to get a compression test done.

 

[gabtrac]

Thanks Guys, I'll try all of it...
Gas soaked rag! Genius.
I kringe when I use ether.
Not exactly sure what you mean by "turn upside down and hook back up"... do you mean remove the injector attach the line, let it hang there, and crank?

 

[Ronsii]

Turn the line upsidedown so you can hook the injector back onto it without it being in the engine

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yes, you can let it hang.. turn it up, lay it on its side.. just so you can SEE IT opening and spraying..
IF you've never done it before or have seen it done.. ITS VERY DANGEROUS.. DO NOT GET NEAR THE SPRAY..

 

[chansey]

Since you are not getting smoke when you crank it, sounds like fuel starvation

You did not indicate what injection pump you have and whether it has a S/O solenoid or a mechanic S/O. If the S/O is electrically operated, you have a latch and a hold function on the solenoid. Latch it triggered when you initiate the start function and then drops out when the starter is no longer running. The hold function is an ignition "on" function and supplies voltage to the solenoid when the engine is running. If it is a mechanical S/O make sure the knob is not in the "kill" position.

We will wait to see if you have fuel at the injectors. When machines sit for a while and the fuel in the system dries out, it can cause other problems like plugged screens, either in the plunger pump or the infeed to the injection pump.

 

[ScottAR]

On a friends superK it turned out to be the primer pump sucking air. Made it seem cold natured on a hot day.

 

[chansey]

Fuel Injection

You asked if you needed a bigger basket of parts ???? Don't buy anything until you know what the problem is. Short of the pump being defective, most everything else can be solved by cleaning or tightening loose fittings.

Buying parts and replacing them is a hit and miss at best. It's like checking the horse's teeth when the problem is really at the other end.

Then again, if you have deep pockets you'll end up replacing the engine instead of a $00.02 o-ring.

 

[gabtrac]

Thanks again to all.
There's been a death in the family, so it's going to be a while before I get back to the machine (it's in a remote location).
I'll try everything you've suggested and let you all know what happens.
All the best,
a

 

[Tarhe Driver]

Gabtrac is a class act. Even with a death in the family, time was made to notify this forum of future inactivity so that we lurkers were not left hanging.

My condolences on your loss, which is never easy, but which time can sometimes help.

Neill

 

[gabtrac]

Thank you very much.
Father in-law.
A good and gentle man.

Best of the season to all.

 

[gabtrac]

Happy new year to all!

Ok... I'm back.
I installed a block heater yesterday and left on all night.
The engine was nice and warm today.
I bled all the lines.
I checked for fuel at the injectors - yes.
Strung a few extra batteries in the line for extra power.
I turned her over with only a small amount of grey smoke coming from the exhaust.
She did not start #^%$&##@!
I realized you guys suggested I pull an injector, which I haven't done yet.
Something has been bugging me and I wanted to ask you guys first before pulling the injectors.
When I left her in November she was running and starting just fine. When the temp dropped and I returned after a few weeks she wouldn't start.
I'm trying to understand what might/could have/go logically gone wrong with a temp drop and a slightly extended down time...?
I'm the type that needs to understand why something's not working before proceeding... ya know?
So, without any obvious problems when I left her, what are the things that could have caused this, given the temp drop and time?
AND, please know that I truly appreciate your help.

Other info -
It has a Lucas pump.
I checked the solenoid and it was getting power and clicking. I took it off and it worked when I put power to it.

All the best.
a

 

[Delmer]

Does it squirt good when you bleed the air from the filter and injection pump?

And how does the velocity coming out of the exhaust look? puffing about a foot with no wind? if you have a plugged air intake (mice, etc) then the engine will crank, blow a little smoke but not start, not enough air for compression.

 

[gabtrac]

Hi Delmer.
Thanks for your reply.
I've had the filters off, to blow warm air into the intake when trying to start.
I've also had the big pipe to the Turbo off as well. All seems to be clear.

Not sure what good squirting looks like. But it doesn't seem to be much less than when I've bled in the past.
I had never "bled" from the injectors so I'm not sure. The amount of fuel at each injector pipe is only about 2-3 drops and doesn't shoot out with much force.

Yes, it puffs up about a foot - no more. But that's with the hood open, if that means anything. Just tried it again and the smoke is light grey.

 

[Willie B]

Have you only tried to start below 32 F, 0 C? Fuel filter might be iced. Several times I have found a diesel won't run with an old fuel filter, a new dry one, bleed the system, it starts right up.

Willie

 

[thepumpguysc]

MAKE SURE the throttle is held WIDE OPEN when trying to start it..
The bleed screw on the pump is the one by the name plate, double screw, 5/16.. loosen that screw and crank the engine until the air is out & tighten.
Loosen ALL the lines AT THE injectors, or as many as you can reach, the more the better..
Crank the engine, fuel should be squirting out.. or at least dribbling pretty good.. no air..
Once you get fuel at the injectors, tighten them up and crank it..

 

[Delmer]

I loosen the nut only a bit and the fuel squirts out between the tiny tube and the nut, so it squirts free when it's ready to start. It's not much though, probably only a couple drops like you say. The bleeder on the filter housing or injection pump should squirt enough that it's easy to see, not just a trickle.