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Building a cut and fill

diggerdave1958

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Jan 31, 2010
Messages
246
Location
Michigan
Good advice, joispoi. I do Septic installs new and replacements and i work on minor slopes alot and we have to bring in a lot of septic sand and almost all the time we use the excavated material to berm the septic fields and its NEVER a balanced cut and fill so i guess its something u learn from doing and the "school" of hard knocks.
 

J Olender

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Apr 21, 2010
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72
Location
Northern Ca
You now the song "where did all the good people go" from Jack Johnson? Well they're all right here on this forum! Thank you all for the advice and great insights. I'll try to post some pic's in a few weeks. By the way, happy Friday!
 

Pecord Exc

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Oct 27, 2008
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181
Location
Westchester, NY
OK, i looked at your plan that you sent me. i understand the your confusion. You have a sloped lot and it seems fairly well balanced. Your best bet is to set up your laser or transit and pull the FFE from the existing garage as your benchmark to find out where your 45.66 elevation is that you have to meet. Ignore the topo on the plan for now. layout your house the same way you normally would by pulling tape or whatever other means you have available to you. You at least have the garage that exists you can work with. stake your corners, you can worry about offsets later if need be.

Find out where your 45.66 elev is with your level, transit or laser and mark it. from there cut into the bank and just start bailing placing your spoils both in the fill area and a couple of yards in a stockpile for backfilling the foundation later. Do you have to retain the Geo Technical engineer to test the fill under the foundation or is it the GC's responsibility, oh and BTW there is only a 1 to 2' fill under the building pad, you shouldnt have problem achieving compaction as long as you strip the topsoil from under the fill.

You can do it the topo makes it look complex but it isnt to bad. I will post the plan you sent me here for others to chime in and offer advice. PM me for my cell phone number later and if need be we can talk about it in further detail.
 

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diggerdave1958

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Jan 31, 2010
Messages
246
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Michigan
WoW, Pecord Exc u realie when to bat for him and good advice on how to start the job and very good of him to send u the site plan to work from. Also we call them "walk-out" basement here, don't think i have ever heard them called "daylite" basements !!!!
 

J Olender

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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
72
Location
Northern Ca
That helps a ton! That's basically where I was going to start as well. I just wasn't sure if there was a far better way. I think the next challenge will be building an access road down next to the septic tank, in order to bring a pad drum compacter down to the lowest
bench to start the fill. I don't know if I can get 95% with a dozer. The G.C. will be responsible for providing a geo-tech. I may give you a call. Thanks again, you've gone far and above the call of duty!
 

diggerdave1958

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Jan 31, 2010
Messages
246
Location
Michigan
U are right about the dozer not be able to achive the 95% compaction u will need a sheepfoot compactor to get that, is the material mostly clay or a mixture of materials ??
 

J Olender

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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
72
Location
Northern Ca
Cut/fill

Hey Wacker, no frost requirements. And the engineer is calling for a 3" wall. But I would say it's going to need to be a little higher. He has put some quantities in there as well. Cut area,62 yds. fill area, 77 yds. He has put in a note: Grading contractor to verify all grading quantities prior to construction.
How the heck do I come up with any different quantities than he did, using the same plot plan? I think he's saying he's not responsible for the true quantities! But I don't know how I'm going to come up with any different information. You guys are awesome by the way!
 

Acivil

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Jan 30, 2010
Messages
154
Location
Tennessee
If you want to know where to start your fill, I would lay out the "Toe of Slope" boundary on your fill slope... That should be the very edge of any fill you will be placing, it should also be the lowest elevation you will be working at. In order to do that, just scale it on the plans from the two closest known points. Layout can be tricky at first, but you will get the hang of it. If the plans dont have a scale, just take a known distance on the plans and measure it with a scale and compensate it. Once you get the toe of slope line layed out, you can check the grades and make sure they tie in... if they don't you will have one of those oh so golden opportunities to scream at the engineer...:D as long as the grades tie in, you can then scale to the top of the slope, and lay that line out aswell. once you have the top of slope layed out you can check the grades there, and mark your fills as needed. If you have more than the grade stakes' height in fill, just mark it from the top, and as you get close to the top with your fill, drive another one right next to it and measure up from the first one until you reach final subgrade. Finish it with a laser though. Remember the proper way to place fill is in level lifts, so cut a bench parallel with the slope, and bring your fill up level, then just finish your slope once you get the pad to grade. Good Luck:drinkup
 

J Olender

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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
72
Location
Northern Ca
Cut/fill

Hey thinks Acivil! After talking with all of you guys, I have a real clear picture in my head of what I need to do to get started. I think I had a lot of the right ideas, but now there all confirmed. :drinkup
 

Davvinciman

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Nov 29, 2011
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82
Location
So. California
Occupation
Operating engineer and business owner
There is a book on grade checking that tells you how to calculate yardage and check grade on slopes that is relatively inexpensive. Knowing how to balance dirt right and check grade since there isn't one there helps with the bidding but I had a boss that could do jobs, BIG jobs, and he couldn't even read the plans. Go figure. The book is at www.gradecheckingpress.com and runs about 13 bucks. Good luck on the job.
 

Davvinciman

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Nov 29, 2011
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So. California
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Operating engineer and business owner
U are right about the dozer not be able to achive the 95% compaction u will need a sheepfoot compactor to get that, is the material mostly clay or a mixture of materials ??

Well, I have gotten 95% by tracking with even a small dozer. Just keep your fill lifts less than a half foot and track it really good. It is necessary sometimes when you don't have room for a sheepsfoot and too much fill for a walk-behind vibratory.
 

CM1995

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Jan 21, 2007
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Alabama
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Running what I brung and taking what I win
Originally Posted by diggerdave1958
U are right about the dozer not be able to achive the 95% compaction u will need a sheepfoot compactor to get that, is the material mostly clay or a mixture of materials ??

Well, I have gotten 95% by tracking with even a small dozer. Just keep your fill lifts less than a half foot and track it really good. It is necessary sometimes when you don't have room for a sheepsfoot and too much fill for a walk-behind vibratory.

Old thread but good info.;)

You can obtain the spec'd compaction % with a variety of methods, a compactor is not the only way. A rubber tire skid steer does a decent job of compacting small lifts, a loaded tandem or tri-axle dump does a great job and is often spec'd by engineers to do proof rolls and a dozer or loader has been used many, many times to compact roads, pads and a multitude of dirt projects around the world.

Compaction can be achieved by any means of weight, manipulation and lift thickness. The lighter the weight and manipulation, the thinner the lift.
 

Bob Horrell

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Nov 18, 2003
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Acton, CA
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Owner/Operator grading business
I'll add a little to CM1995's response for those not totally familiar with how to get proper compaction.
First and foremost there has to be a proper amount of moisture for the material being compacted. This varies by soil type, where exact moisture content is more critical in some soils and not so in others. A real crude field test that works pretty well for a lot of soil types is as follows: make a ball out of the material by packing it with your hands (much like making a snowball). Then drop the ball from about waist high on hard ground. If the moisture is proper it will break into a few large pieces. It it doesn't break at all, it is too wet. If it shatters into many small pieces, it is too dry. I know it is a crude test, but it is surprising how well it works on a variety of soils. Of course it is not scientific and doesn't apply equally to all soil types.
Secondly, you have to have 2 of the following present to get good compaction: pressure, kneading, impaction, and vibration.
Some for instances:
Skid steer has kneading from the lugs on the tires and pressure from the weight
Dozer has kneading from grousers and vibration from the tracks (although the dozers can be heavy, the pressure per square foot is small with tracked vehicles)
Vibrating rollers have vibration and pressure
You can get compaction from one of the four above by itself, but it usually is just surface compaction and doesn't penetrate as deeply as it would if another form was also present. For instance, in the dump truck example, you have mostly pressure with a small amount of kneading depending upon the tire type.
The amount of lift you can compact depends upon how much of the four factors are present and to what degree. For example, a skid steer and a 5 yard loader are similar in design and both compact using kneading and pressure. The 5 yard loader, because if its size and lbs/sq. foot pressure can compact larger lifts than a skid steer. Both would do a better job of compacting if their buckets were full vs. empty.
Like most things in the dirt world, experience is the best teacher. The more soil types you encounter and the more different equipment you use, the better you get at selecting proper equipment, maintaing proper moisture, and determining proper lift height for any soil type to get good compaction.
 

Excavavatorz

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Dec 1, 2011
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Australia QLD
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Excavator operator/ Director
Mate u are shouldn't price a job if you can't do it.
Try working for some for a while& learn.
The client would be so happy when his house slipps down the hill.
 

Davvinciman

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Nov 29, 2011
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So. California
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Operating engineer and business owner
I'll add a little to CM1995's response for those not totally familiar with how to get proper compaction.
First ................ and determining proper lift height for any soil type to get good compaction.

Explanations just don't get more complete than that, Bob. What's fun sometimes is what people use to get the proper squish to it. Scrapers splitting the wheel tracks of the guy ahead, water trucks wheel rolling hard to get areas when they have a little slack time, compactors building a raised slope shoulder so the scrapers can stay close to the edge. It's stuff you just don't see much of anymore. Not just dig and dump.
But I have to say I have seen some pretty good explanations and yours is one of them.
Thanks, Bob. Sorry if I get a little off subject on some of these threads.
 

Reel hip

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Nov 30, 2010
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246
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San Diego
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owner operator bobcat"s and dump truck"s
If the engineer is worth a xxxx set your top grade stakes and your bottom grade stakes and grade those elevation and the rest should take care of itself..Compaction should be done as your placing the fill from the borrow and if you come up short, i smell a change order $$.

That's what I was thinking. Make sure you have an extra in there if more material is needed. What type of soil are you working with? 25% compaction may need some tweaking.
 

Reel hip

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San Diego
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owner operator bobcat"s and dump truck"s
just realized this is a very old thread. I wonder what the outcome was.
 
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