Books or good info on learning about hydraulic systems.

[MadMitch]

Hello guys. Happy New Year to all.

Has been a while since my last post. I have been gaining more and more experience with excavators and all is going well.

I have a few questions to put out there. If you could help with any information or advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

1. Are there any good sources of information around (books or websites) that would help me to improve my understanding of hydraulic systems on excavators and other earthmoving equipment. Now I realise some of you blokes will say your best bet of getting the knowledge is to work with the systems and perform maintenance and yes I 100% agree with you and I have been doing just that. But I would also like to do a bit of reading on the subject as well.

I hope to gain some good knowledge about the workings of the machine I'm operating so that if a problem were to arise, I may be in with a chance to troubleshoot it myself if the problem was easily found.

My current knowledge level is little. I understand the basics of how hydraulics work (Fluid movement creating more force etc) but wish to examine how it does it.


2. As I am gaining more work on excavators, I realise there is a need to have some handy tools to help fix problems.
I dropped a track on my 7.5t yanmar yesterday and now know if I don't have a crowbar (or a long bar for leverage), socket set and a grease gun on the machine or in my ute, I'm well up **** creek.

Are there any tools that you would recommend to have as an operator ?


Thanks for your time. Look forward to hearing from you guys

 

[Plant Fitter]

Search Amazon or Ebay for:

1. John Deere Fundamentals of Service: Hydraulics.

2. Vickers Mobile Hydraulics Manual.

3. Industrial Hydraulic Control by Peter Rohner.

In that order, the John Deere FOS hydraulics being the most suitable for learning the basics, then Vickers next. Second hand books are often a good option as tech books are pretty expensive.


Also may be worth signing up for email newsletters from http://www.insidersecretstohydraulics.com/ by Brendan Casey. He has some good info although a lot of his ideas are good in theory but not so good in practice.


If anyone else has other suggestions I would be interested as well.

Good to hear you are taking an interest in how the machines work, just don't try to tell the Fitters how to do their job until you are really sure of yourself...........

 

[OCR]

A couple from the web, maybe you've seen them... :beatsme

http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/ ...Do a little browsing here.

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html ...Mostly stuff by Brendan Casey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_power ... can get about as technical as you can stand... lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fluid_dynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_power#External_links

Might be worth joining?

http://www.fluidpower.net/fpni/index

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_machinery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_machinery#External_links


Try Google???... Lots of forums out there, usually they're not as good as a technical manual, as Plant Fitter noted.




OCR

 

[still learn'n]

is there a difference in the john deere books there is some from different years and there is some that say for offroad equipment? Jerry

 

[DieselFuel]

the Eatons mobile hydraulic manual is great, takes you from very basic concepts to the more complicated and in depth systems
http://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Hydraulics-Manual-5th-Printing/dp/0978802209

 

[crewchief888]

i was going to suggest deere's hydraulic FOS as well.

JD's FOS engines and powertrains are also informative.

they were required reading at the deere dealer i worked at.
tested on them as well.

the ones i tested on in the late 80's were at least 10 years old at the time.

:drinkup

 

[MadMitch]

Thanks for that guys I will look into it.

Yeah I like to know how and why things do what they do lol. Some people say I'm a bit like James may off topgear. Except I don't name all my tools haha

 

[Jim D]

Mitch,

www.insanehydraulics.com - It has some very in-depth material and pictures of open and closed loop hydraulic pumps and motors.

"Kaboom", "Back-Engineer This" and "Battlefield" will put you on your way...

 

[stondad]

G'day Mitch,

Lots of good advice above on where good info can be found.

I have read some of your stuff before so I've got a bit of an idea of where you are at, so I don't think you will get the wrong idea from what I'm going to say, but I might get a hiding from a few other members.

Mate, your goal of wanting to better understand your machine is to be applauded, and if I know you, you will succeed to a certain extent. I just don't want you getting in trouble or wasting time when you should concentrate on increasing your knowledge and furthering your career as an Operator.

Sure, you should be able to adjust track tension.
But aim to learn about earthmoving so you can change to a Boss whose machines don't walk out of their tracks, even though operating a machine that does have worn walking gear will teach you how to look after one that doesn't.
Did anyone show you how to release the track tensioner before this? Surely you always have a grease gun with you ?

What I am trying to say is that the John Deere books for example are excellent, but are also very own-product-specific, and believe me, no other manufacturer does hydraulic systems like John Deere does.
So you could end up fully understanding the JD closed centre, load sensing system with radial piston pump, but that won't help you on your Yanmar, Hitachi, Komatsu or Cat.
My point is that all an operator needs to know on the John Deere is where to put the right oil in, what a leak looks like, and how to destroke the pump if he has to, and how to use the radio and phone.

Here is a tip to help you in understanding however deep you end up going:-
Pressure is force (to overcome the load).
Flow makes it go (moves the load and is related to speed).

If you have ambitions of getting your own machine one day, only buy new and replace every 3 or 4 years, then you don't have to worry about ever knowing why it won't go.

Read the Operators' Manuals for every machine you can find, before you start worrying about how a three main pump excavator with summation horespower control, load sensing electronic proportional valves and logic elements works.
Some operators dont know how to properly set the "mode" on the machine they operate.

Hope you and everyone gets what I've tried to say.

Cheers. Maurie.

 

[MadMitch]

Hey Maurie.

First off, thanks for taking the time to write that. Appreciate it.

I do understand what you are saying and where you are coming from.

The majority of our machines are smaller Yanmar's with rail gears attached so I see where you say reading about a "John Deere" would be of little use. I have been getting my grubby hands on some of the manuals where I can and having a read.

I guess the reason why I want to expand my knowledge is that the company I work for (family business) is fairly small. Most of us blokes have multiple machines to operate (dumpers, rollers, excavators) and also on top of that perform repairs and maintenance on these machines. Now being a young bloke (21) I don't have the experience of the other guys so any way I can further myself and my mechanical knowledge will help out a lot.

Personally I don't see it as "wasting time" to learn about these things. If all it takes is a bit of reading of an evening then it certainly wouldn't be wasting my time. (Not to mention more productive than watching tv)

I am striving to be seen as a "good" operator in my employers eyes and also an operator that is clued up and knows NOT to call a mechanic when something simple like not turning the hydraulic taps on when hitching up his tilt bucket or the likes of putting a track back on.

Please don't get confused and think that I want to learn how to perform a hydraulic system rebuild on site. That is far from the case. Im just interested in getting some good common knowledge about hydraulics and the machines as a whole.


To put it in a bit of context, I ride motocross. I have friends that ride motocross.

The difference between me and them is I took the time out of my nights off to read up on the subject of dirt bike suspension. How/Why it all works right down to small details like eliminating cavitation with the use of nitrogen pressure in the high speed compression and rebound strokes of a rear shock.

Now you ask any of my mates what "cavitation" is and I could put money on it they would say "something to do with your teeth ?"

I didn't NEED to know these things but I wanted to, just to understand things more thoroughly.
Like I said in a previous post. Im a James May type of person. If any of you watch top gear you will understand haha

I hope that gives you a bit of context.

Again thanks for all your info and advice guys. Its nice to know that they're are some decent blokes out there that are willing to help us young guys out.

 

[MadMitch]

Mitch,

www.insanehydraulics.com - It has some very in-depth material and pictures of open and closed loop hydraulic pumps and motors.

"Kaboom", "Back-Engineer This" and "Battlefield" will put you on your way...

Just been having a gander at this website. Great link ! They guy has some good humour too

 

[stondad]

Good on you mate!

You'll go far.

 

[Plant Fitter]

What I am trying to say is that the John Deere books for example are excellent, but are also very own-product-specific, and believe me, no other manufacturer does hydraulic systems like John Deere does.
So you could end up fully understanding the JD closed centre, load sensing system with radial piston pump, but that won't help you on your Yanmar, Hitachi, Komatsu or Cat.

Hope you and everyone gets what I've tried to say.

Cheers. Maurie.

Yes, I get what you are trying to say.

However, the John Deere Fundamentals of Service books do cover all the basics, and are still the best for a learner starting out.

 

[stondad]

Yes, I get what you are trying to say.

However, the John Deere Fundamentals of Service books do cover all the basics, and are still the best for a learner starting out.

You are right, and I'm glad I don't seem to have offended anyone.

We used JD books as textbooks when I was an apprentice at Yeronga in the early 1970's.

Some hydraulic stuff remained mysterious until I started designing and selling industrial hydraulics 10 or 15 years later.
A sectional view with coloured lines can still hide what a standard hydraulic symbol shows graphically.

I did get the "Theory of Operation" for the 410 and 510 a year or so ago to re-learn how it works.
You don't stand a chance of understanding it without the John Deere explanation !

 

[akkamaan]

Here is a tip to help you in understanding however deep you end up going:-
Pressure is force (to overcome the load).
Flow makes it go (moves the load and is related to speed).

Your first part is "OK", the pressure is a way to express force. Nothing else than force can create motion or move the load. Flow is a result of force. Flow does not create motion, flow is motion.
Flow is oil moving in a hydraulic line attached to a load. Basically the same as a load attached to a rope. It is the force at the end of the rope that creates the motion. Of course, the load won't move if the rope is not moving but it is not "cubic inch of rope per second" (flow) that makes the load move. It is the force at the end of the rope that makes the load moved the force is transferred to the load via tension (pressure) in the rope.
Link to Newtons Laws of motion
Newtons second law applies for this case

 

[TVA]

I am promoting the website that I came across when googling hydraulic knowledge, it has lots of hands on information, but it is also have the library section with links to literature!

http://www.insanehydraulics.com/

Also, if nobody mentioned before - http://hansonhydraulics.com/wordpress/

 

[DIYDAVE]

Surpluscenter.com has a lot of calculators, for hydraulic stuff... You need to enter what you want to figure out, from the categories, on the left sids of this page: https://www.surpluscenter.com/shop.axd/TechHelp

 

[akkamaan]

http://www.insanehydraulics.com/
http://hansonhydraulics.com/wordpress/

"Sergey" that runs Insane Hydraulics is genius in many remarks but this one he screwed up...
Doug Hanson has a ton of practical experience but not on "steroids" like Sergey...

 

[TVA]

"Sergey" that runs Insane Hydraulics is genius in many remarks but this one he screwed up...
Doug Hanson has a ton of practical experience but not on "steroids" like Sergey...
View attachment 193470

I don’t think he screwed up on that one (we do know the pump produces both! And one cannot be without the other!)

I think that phrase was for “dummies” to get them snap out of “stuck in pressure” condition and get their mind set on correct understanding faster!

 

[TVA]

Funny thing happened: first I found the website, was reading a lot, than I looked at the authors name - and his last name told me that we are actually may come from the same country!

Long story short - I never met the guy, I don’t even know ho he looks like, but we are friends who exchange 10-20 emails a day.

And pretty soon he will surprise the hydraulic community around the world!