Bobcat t200- heavy smoke under load

[Bubba]

Thanks Willie, I will do the test when I get back home and let you know. Thanks Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Thanks Iron Dirt. Can you tell me where the Blow By Tube is. I don't remember seeing it when I put it back together from the Turbo Swap. Thanks Bubba

 

[bustedknuckle]

The blowby tube on that engine tee's into the intake piping just ahead of the turbo.

 

[Bubba]

Hello Willie (ATCO) I just got through doing the test with starting fluid that you suggested. I removed the connectors from the 4 glow plugs, removed primary and secondary air filters, and disconnected the plug that goes to the fuel shutoff solenoid. We cranked it with a shot or two starting fluid and it seemed like it wanted to start but stopped cranking because it sounded like it was going to lock up and I was a little afraid I might do more damage. Then I had him turn it over and keep it turning and at the same time spraying starting fluid in it. I acted like it might want to start or fire off but I was never able to get it to continously to run with starting fluid. This machine has the computer stuff on it and I had problems in April with the Tilt Actuator. The Bobcat dealer could never find the problem so he replaced the main wiring harness. When I was changing the turbo I noticed that the main harness was riding on the cooling fan belt idler, when I picked it up to move it and check it, fire shot from the harness. Then I noticed that two wires had been cut into. Before installing all the stuff around the turbo I spliced those wires and taped all the ones that had the rubber insulation rubbed off from the fan belt. Then I tied off with tie straps to prevent it happening again hoping that I had all my problems fixed. Just for infomation the total bill was about $3000.00 but I complained to the sales mgr so bad about buying a machine that they claimed they had went through and I paid to much for, he decided to split the bill, Well I didn't get a bill for 4 months so I thought he would just waive it but anyway he and I are still talking about it. Do you think that the wires that were cut could have affected the diagnostic system of the computer and prevented me from receiving a warning of some kind in the event of "low oil" or "hot engine" or "dirty air filter" to noitify me to shutdown the machine and show active codes before a major problem happen. Just Wondering. Anybody wanted add anything the "floor is open" go for it. Thanks Bubba

 

[willie59]

Well Bubba, that starting fluid test is not a definitive yes or no about condition of engine, just gives some clues. Remember, only a compression test would yield the most beneficial information. But, the fact that it tried to lock down, about the only way that could happen would be from compression being present. I've worked on worn slap out engines that you couldn't get them to lock down by drowning them with starting fluid and still managed to get them to run. Again, this is not definitive, engines vary greatly in how the react to stages of wear.

One thing I'm really beginning to wonder at this point is the possibility that the cam timing belt has jumped. That would make that engine run really goofy and eventually not run altogether, something you might want to look into.

 

[Bubba]

Thanks Willie. I probably owe you a week salary for the time you spent with me on this but you don't know how much I appreicate YOU and everybody else for all their help with this thang. I might break me but it ain't gonna beat us. I gonna take it tomorrow and have a compression test done on it and also have the injectors checked. My last one broke the lugs off the timing belt, I had it next to a pile burning and using the blower to get the fire burning hot. It made a devil of racket and sounded like a bomb went off. I thought it had injested some fire in the engine and just blew up. But I found out it was a timing belt. The call Shiver Diesel in Tifton Ga, the Duetz dealer and replaced it on the trailer one afternoon at there shop. I hope I can find out something definite tomorrow and let YOU and everybody else know whats going on with this thang. Again Thank You for your help. Take Care and BE CAREFUL. If they don't satisfy me, don't be surprised if you don't see me driving in one day with this machine. I reckon its OK to say that on HEF, if not I appologize. somebody let me know if I'm not suppose to say things like that on here. Thanks Bubba

 

[willie59]

Aww, no worries bubba, it helps me just as much to be here working through problems like this until a resolution is achieved, helps me learn something during the process. I do hope you get some good results for a change.

 

[BGG]

Bgg

It,s not that hard to spot a turbo problem on a duetze,or any turbo. Pull the intake hose. If you feel any ressistance, pushing in or pulling out,wiggling the shaft. The turbo could be the problem. Not alot of tolarance with turbo`s.

 

[Bubba]

Hey Willie I got it checked out today. James listen to it run then he loosen the fuel line on each injector while it was running, He started with the # 4 cylinder (Duetz are backwards - #4 is the one on the far right facing the engine from the rear of the machine which is closest to the timing belt) and while it was running when he loosen the fuel line it missed each time UNTIL he loosen # 1 and was not hitting on nothing. So he removed the injector and went and had it checked and cleaned. He reinstall the injector and the glow plug and we started it again and it still was running with no improvement. Then he did a compression test on the #1 cylinder and it indicated 0 (nothing) he thought that is compression tested was messed up so he went to check it out and it was OK. Then he put his finger over the inector port and there was no pressure on it. He said it should be pushing his finger up, I tried it and you could barely feel in pressure on it. So it appears that we got problems with the # 1 cylinder. He going to pull the head off tomorrow and see what the problem is and I will let everybody hopefully Friday or Saturday what he finds out. What you Think? If the cylinder walls are good and not scarred up from a seized piston and all it needs is one jug repaired should I just go ahead and rebuild the whole engine or just fix what is broke. The machine is a nice machine and I probably going to keep it for a while, but I don't want to spend no more than I have to but I want to know that when we put it back together I can depend on it for many hours. Appreciate any advice You or Anybody can give me on what course of action I need to take and how much. Thanks Again TAKE CARE-BE CAREFUL Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Thanks BGG for your input, I will remember this in the future. I have never had any dealing with a Turbo other than operating machines with Turbo's. But I'm Learning. Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Hey Les-LWG, You still following my thread on the T200. I know you got one and don't want to miss out on all this stuff. I'm thinking somehow my T200 wasn't get oil to the #1 cylinder when the machine was on a slope (or tilted somehow ) while working it. I don't know but I need to know why it didn't get enough oil if case may be why the piston and main bearing, etc was getting lubricated. I also thought that these engine has some kind of safety net when they are short on oil. It seems like there should be a shut down if it is low on oil and wasn't picking up oil from the oil pan. We want know the whole story (or may never know) until the mechanic gets it apart. Thanks Bubba

 

[xcmark]

Bubba keep you fingers crossed it could be something simple like a stuck valve or burnt valve , both are just top end work and fairly simple. Best of luck my friend!

 

[Bubba]

Well Fellows the Fat Little Lady has Sung, and it ain't good. My Duetz Mechanic has pull the head off
Sell found that the injector was improperly dispensing fuel to the piston. Instead of spraying fuel it was sqirting fuel on top of the piston on the side in the wrong place and it burnt the side of the side of the piston on #1cylinder scaring the cylinder wall. Engine has to be pulled and rebuilt or replaced. I ask him how long it being doing that and he said for sometime
I also ask him if he found any dirt in the engine and said he didn't. I also ask him did a lack oil lubrication have any thing to do with the problem and he said it didn't. I also ask him did
I do anything to cause it and he said no that it was a bad I injector that just progressed to the point where it was burning a whole in the piston by the direct flow of fuel. Now I just gotta see what routes i'm gonna take. Thanks everybody i'll keep you posted.
Bubba. BE SAFE

 

[LWG]

Hey, Bubba. Sorry to hear about the problem. There are a number of places that will rebuild that Deutz. Each one is about $4,500, with the core exchanged. I know it isn't cheap, but you will get essentially a "new" engine out of it. If the undercarriage is good, a rebuilt engine will give you a good machine. The parts are available if your mechanic can do a field rebuild. I don't know whether the Deutz cylinder could be re-sleeved, but that might be an option.

I know that now you know the situation, and it was not a lack of lubrication, but they will shut off if the oil pressure is too low. I think it's 20 - 25 psi above idle, and a little less than that at idle. The Bobcat manual is said to warn against operation at angles of more than 25* or so, precisely to prevent damage from oil starvation. I don't think anyone pays attention to that, though. I have been told by a number of operators that they routinely exceed the recommended figure. Most of them do not have to worry about the cost to repair the machine they are running, though.

At least you know the situation. Depending upon how you look at it, rebuilding the engine doesn't cost more than undercarriage work, like drive motors. I don't know what your mechanic can tell you about the condition of the u/c without the engine running, but if the rest of the machine is good, I'd get it fixed if I possibly could.

Hang in there.

Les

 

[LWG]

Also, the rebuilds generally do not include the turbo. Since you have a new one, you will not lose on that.

 

[Bubba]

Thanks Les for the recommendations. This machine is in good conditions, its a full cab with heat/Air, it got the power bobtach option, its got am/fm radio. and all the metal is in great shape. When I traded my previous T200 on this one I just replaced all the idlers. They all went out with about 2000 hrs on it like a set of car tires. The dealer said he was going to replace a sprocket and 1 idler and i ask him if he would just exchange my idlers for his and replace the sprocket. He agreed, so the idlers shouldn't have more than 250 hrs on it. Everything else seems ok. Ever since I had this machine it seemed like it didn't have the power that my other one had. I told the salesman about it but he said that the AC would account for that. I just took his word for it. But by it being little weak on a heavy load would probably account for the bad injector. I think that if the machine starts to progressively get weaker the first I would do was check the injectors. If one starts to go bad it going to do the same thing that this one does and burn the piston. My Mechanic said that the piston has a place on top for the fuel to hit I take that kinda like a cutting tip on a torch when it gets clogged from debris. Anyway I done got a little gun shy on the Duetz engine, but I reckon this could happen to any of them. But the Duetz is so unique by design, it takes $800.00 special tool just to change the timing belt, and one man told me that if I rebuild the engine I need to replace the radiator. Now he may said that because of thinking that their was dirt in the engine. I got something else going on that I may do, so I'll know next week how it works out. I'll keep everybody posted on my final outcome. I appreicate all your concern. But I may just buy one them complete engines and put it in it. I may not have choice, but if I decide to fix it I might as well just go ahead completely rebuild it, instead of just replacing the # 1 cylinder and have it bored out. Take Care My Friend and PLEASE BE SAFE Bubba

 

[LWG]

My machine has the heat and A/C too, but the A/C is not working. I put a 12v fan in the top of the cab, and that thing is worth its weight in gold. No matter how hot it gets, it's comfortable in the cab, with no door to worry about.

The heat is great. My son and I were moving pallets of crushed stone off of our trailer, and down to the an area under our porch that I am going to cover with pavers. I bought some very inexpensive forks that attach to the bucket. I don't even have to remove the tooth bar. They are fine, and are really sturdy. They were about $150 with free shipping off of eBay, and worth every penny.

I guess what I'm saying is that my machine is indispensable. I don't make my living off of running equipment, like most of the people here, but it's darned important.

I think you have to find a good, honest mechanic. There is no reason why simply equipping a machine with A/C would make it seem less powerful. Of course, if you are running the A/C, you are turning the compressor and that will take some horsepower. But if the A/C is not on, and assuming the clutch is properly disengaging the compressor when you turn the A/C off, the engine is just turning a pulley.

Losing an engine is never a happy experience, although I found it's not a big deal with my Case 1816 -- you can take out four bolts and slide the engine out by hand. With these machines, you can spend a lot more on bad hydro motors, valves and solenoids.

I wouldn't worry about the Deutz engines. Again, find a decent, honest mechanic. I found a Mennonite shop about 2 hours away. There are closer places, but these guys are fantastic. They completely rebuilt a backhoe attachment, and did a great job. Their shop rate is very reasonable, and they are scrupulously honest. I have complete faith in their work. They did a pre-buy for me on my T200. They replaced the timing belt, and it was not expensive at all.

I would get an estimate for a field rebuild. If it was more than 2k, I would go with a remanufactured engine. I don't know about replacing the oil cooler, but that doesn't sound right to me. If it's clean and holds pressure, I wouldn't bother. If you want, I'll check with my shop and see what they recommend. If it's a weak point in the design, they'll know.

Les