The story I hear from one of the longtime equipment operators is that Potlatch hired a couple of Plum Creek's officials who stand to make a pretty large bonus when they retire in a couple of yrs - even if it guts the company/business in the process. Sadly, it looks like a lot of guys who supported that company for decades are going to suffer as a result.
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Are we approaching a crisis with Yarders?
- Thread starter Scott S
- Start date
I appreciate the sentiment of the thread author.
Here is a link to a few pics of the rebuilt 172 that did the Trans-Pacific crossing for a rebuild.
http://activeequipment.co.nz/rebuilds/madill-172-2/
Here is a link to a few pics of the rebuilt 172 that did the Trans-Pacific crossing for a rebuild.
http://activeequipment.co.nz/rebuilds/madill-172-2/
theironoracle
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Plebeian, that is awesome. Who did the rebuild? ....theironoracle
Scott S
Well-Known Member
The following was offered to some timber professionals a few weeks back, your opinions would be appreciated if you care to share.
"For many timber companies on several continents cable logging is becoming the only choice for getting wood products to market. Over the last several decades with the advent of incredibly versatile and powerful log loaders, shovel logging has removed most of the easy to get to timber leaving steep and remote sites just as decades earlier.
With Madill leaving the industry for a time a gapping hole was left for new yarder production. With current new prices of $1.5 million plus US and 1-2 year lag times of getting a machine built most logging companies don't have the capital to put at that kind of risk. Many machines including our own are over two decades old and while a total rebuild is always possible the several months of down time for a expensive refurbishment is very difficult for a company to survive. In November we replaced the swing bearing under our TSY 255 Thunderbird, which resulted in several weeks of down time and nearly $60,000 in parts and repairs. We had to pre order the bearing 5 months in advance for this planned repair; it's becoming very common to have replacement parts built as the OEM parts are long gone. A few weeks ago we had a engine fan fail, it took over two weeks to get the part built and shipped in from Canada.
Some companies have been purchasing machines to keep in the “bull pen” in case of a major failure as a replacement but often these machines are being used for spare parts and quickly become unusable. To make matters worse many yarders have been shipped out of the US over the last decade exacerbating the shortage of viable machines here in North America.
I do believe we are quickly getting to a time when aging yarders may become a hazard. We have seen a couple of machines over the past few years that had some real issues, our fear is one or two machine failures with serious injuries involved may lead to a industry wide inspection/recertification or red tagging of yarders. There are only so many hurts that a frame on any piece of equipment can take. Most of the big iron in the woods has tens of thousands of hours on the frame with extensive impact loading.
Our company has been in the market for another yarder for some time now and have found the available used machines to either be in hazardous disrepair or ill fitted to suit our needs. There are a few large long line machines for sale but the need for quick mobility and the ever more stringent weight limits for heavy hauling make the list of choices incredibly small. We have found that big swing yarders are incredibly versatile and efficient but the availability of these machines is near to non-existent.
Recently we contacted a local dealer about the purchase of a new 124 Madill which is the updated model of our current TSY 255 Thunderbird.(see attached spec sheets and proposal) The offering price of $2 million for a bare machine with 10% down and up to over a year wait time for construction is a incredible risk for even a very well capitalized logging company. The machine would need another $150-200 thousand for rigging and carriage just to get started logging.
As of now yarders are failing faster than new construction or rebuilds of older machines can meet needs. We fear we are getting to a point that our industry will become unable to meet market demands with the quickly dwindling supply of safe reliable yarders."
"For many timber companies on several continents cable logging is becoming the only choice for getting wood products to market. Over the last several decades with the advent of incredibly versatile and powerful log loaders, shovel logging has removed most of the easy to get to timber leaving steep and remote sites just as decades earlier.
With Madill leaving the industry for a time a gapping hole was left for new yarder production. With current new prices of $1.5 million plus US and 1-2 year lag times of getting a machine built most logging companies don't have the capital to put at that kind of risk. Many machines including our own are over two decades old and while a total rebuild is always possible the several months of down time for a expensive refurbishment is very difficult for a company to survive. In November we replaced the swing bearing under our TSY 255 Thunderbird, which resulted in several weeks of down time and nearly $60,000 in parts and repairs. We had to pre order the bearing 5 months in advance for this planned repair; it's becoming very common to have replacement parts built as the OEM parts are long gone. A few weeks ago we had a engine fan fail, it took over two weeks to get the part built and shipped in from Canada.
Some companies have been purchasing machines to keep in the “bull pen” in case of a major failure as a replacement but often these machines are being used for spare parts and quickly become unusable. To make matters worse many yarders have been shipped out of the US over the last decade exacerbating the shortage of viable machines here in North America.
I do believe we are quickly getting to a time when aging yarders may become a hazard. We have seen a couple of machines over the past few years that had some real issues, our fear is one or two machine failures with serious injuries involved may lead to a industry wide inspection/recertification or red tagging of yarders. There are only so many hurts that a frame on any piece of equipment can take. Most of the big iron in the woods has tens of thousands of hours on the frame with extensive impact loading.
Our company has been in the market for another yarder for some time now and have found the available used machines to either be in hazardous disrepair or ill fitted to suit our needs. There are a few large long line machines for sale but the need for quick mobility and the ever more stringent weight limits for heavy hauling make the list of choices incredibly small. We have found that big swing yarders are incredibly versatile and efficient but the availability of these machines is near to non-existent.
Recently we contacted a local dealer about the purchase of a new 124 Madill which is the updated model of our current TSY 255 Thunderbird.(see attached spec sheets and proposal) The offering price of $2 million for a bare machine with 10% down and up to over a year wait time for construction is a incredible risk for even a very well capitalized logging company. The machine would need another $150-200 thousand for rigging and carriage just to get started logging.
As of now yarders are failing faster than new construction or rebuilds of older machines can meet needs. We fear we are getting to a point that our industry will become unable to meet market demands with the quickly dwindling supply of safe reliable yarders."
Vigilant
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Let me guess, and I will be discrete: I suspect the first 12 letters in the company name are Weyerhaeuser.
dooby
Active Member
I have been in the logging industry for 25 yrs. and cannot help but wounder were the new trainees will come from as well. In wanting to build a yarder with extreme roading/offroading capabilities I came up with the skidder mounted eco loggers. The trick is finding one that isn't rusted in the ground and doing a rebuild or biting the bullet and building a new one(which wouldn't be so bad all decked out with some new Jewell winches). I have almost 3 milllion ft. of yellow pine on hold till i line up the right yarder and then find 3 willing soles that will stick it out till they are trained. That's as hard as this whole equip. issue IMHO
theironoracle
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I heard about a 172 that got a major overhaul ($500,000) in Washington that got painted at RBAuctions new facility (at highway 12) this spring, was wondering if anyone knows of this and has pictures or been around it running. Rumors I have heard include, Komatsu undercarriage, and Modern did the overhaul, I took 1.5 years.......theironoracle
Hollingerpitch
New Member
There is a company on Vancouver island in the process of building a new yarder, will be finished in spring 2013
It will be similar to madill 123
It will be similar to madill 123
Born2clearcut
Senior Member
Sounds like their hooker need to learn how to put twisters on his guyline stumps . Their really is no reason to be pulling stump's , their is alot of ways to tie back stumps or trees , may have too setup a bridle or 2 with twisters on all your stumps. Mainly when stumps are being pull its just someone tryin to shortcut or too lazy to rig it up right , or your operator is mad at you
.. Just my thoughts and experience I have had in the bush
Other than having watched as a un-involved but interested bystander (having grown up in Northern Idaho), I have no experience in the timber industry.
In other areas involving heavy equipment, rentals have become almost the mainstay where 30 years ago they simply were not available. I wonder if this concept can work for yarders?
Could an outfit like Modern Machinery maintain 2 or 3 yarders and lease them out on a job by job basis? The lease rates would certainly be high, but relative to putting up 300K a year in advance for the purchase of a new outfit, and the risk of not having the volume of work required to pay for the new outfit, it seems that shorter term lease/rental contracts may be a viable idea.
This certainly works with items like crushers that are quite expensive and high maintenance, so I am not sure why it could not work with yarders.
Again, I know nothing about the timber industry, so there may be obvious reasons why this will not work that I am unaware of.
In other areas involving heavy equipment, rentals have become almost the mainstay where 30 years ago they simply were not available. I wonder if this concept can work for yarders?
Could an outfit like Modern Machinery maintain 2 or 3 yarders and lease them out on a job by job basis? The lease rates would certainly be high, but relative to putting up 300K a year in advance for the purchase of a new outfit, and the risk of not having the volume of work required to pay for the new outfit, it seems that shorter term lease/rental contracts may be a viable idea.
This certainly works with items like crushers that are quite expensive and high maintenance, so I am not sure why it could not work with yarders.
Again, I know nothing about the timber industry, so there may be obvious reasons why this will not work that I am unaware of.
theironoracle
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oxbow, I am in about the same position grew up around but never worked in the timber industry until lately when I started repairing logging equipment as part of my business. I agree with your view of rentals working in logging the same as it works in construction, actually I see at as working maybe even better because when a mill gets ahold of a contractor they like doing business with they tend to keep them busy until they no longer need logs, as with construction contracts its over when its over. I have rented some of my logging equipment to my good customers when I had it around before it sold, like a week here a month there type stuff, some times I come out on it, sometimes I do more repairs than the rental rate. this will work it will just take someone with very deep pockets that isn't making a better return on there investment already with less risk.......TIO
wornout wrench
Senior Member
Leasing equipment was very common in the logging industry until a few years ago. I don't know if anyone ever had a yarder on lease.
There are good and bad sides to leasing.
But, we are still back to the original question and problem.
Who is building yarders now?
Brightwater in NZ
TMar in Canada.
TMar still has to get one of their yarders built and out logging. It is a new design and unproven.
Personally I think that it will be an awesome machine. Jim Mantle designed it.:notworthy, I like Jim's machines.
Would TMar consider a lease?
I doubt it.
They are a small company and they have had bad times in the past because of leasing so it would need to be a third party buy the machine and rent or lease it out.
You never know, might be someone out there interested in doing something like this.
Just remember the old saying.
Want to make a million bucks?
Start with 2 million and go logging!:tong
The Wrench.
PS
Going out to help a friend get his 6280 fixed today. He is having a problem and can't find a mechanic that knows anything about them.
Jeez, I'm trying to retire
There are good and bad sides to leasing.
But, we are still back to the original question and problem.
Who is building yarders now?
Brightwater in NZ
TMar in Canada.
TMar still has to get one of their yarders built and out logging. It is a new design and unproven.
Personally I think that it will be an awesome machine. Jim Mantle designed it.:notworthy, I like Jim's machines.
Would TMar consider a lease?
I doubt it.
They are a small company and they have had bad times in the past because of leasing so it would need to be a third party buy the machine and rent or lease it out.
You never know, might be someone out there interested in doing something like this.
Just remember the old saying.
Want to make a million bucks?
Start with 2 million and go logging!:tong
The Wrench.
PS
Going out to help a friend get his 6280 fixed today. He is having a problem and can't find a mechanic that knows anything about them.
Jeez, I'm trying to retire
I am finding that even though the timber co. is screaming for yarders they still don't want to pay for it! I find myself telling them that I don't pre bid sales anymore, they buy it I will give them a price then and thats the price take it or leave it!
loggers son
Well-Known Member
have just been talking to a fellow contractor who went to the forest tech seminar in new zealand last week, was told there are currently approx. 150 yarders working at present in nz with demand increasing to 300 + within the next decade.......also there were 4 logging fatalities there LAST WEEK!..............Hmmmm
numbers seem extreme can anybody back this up?
numbers seem extreme can anybody back this up?
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Scott S
Well-Known Member
I was at a seminar last March where a Kiwi professor teaching at Oregon State University said much the same. He felt there would be a need for a new yarder side every month for the next 10 years in NZ.
His fear was not only there wouldn't be any equipment but getting qualified help would be a extreme problem, perhaps the reason for the fatalities?
There was a short report in 2012 that stated there were 305 or more yarders operating in NZ.
http://www.nzif.org.nz/Folder?Actio... 2012 Survey and European Review - 171012.pdf
There were two reported forestry deaths at the time of the conference. The NZ media is not allowed to report details of deaths that are the subject of coronial inquiries and the media only report a few things- name, location.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11164727 (2 deaths)
The 'workers organisation' in NZ started a renewed campaign this year for safer working environments for workers in high risk work environments.
This is one associated with forestry workers.
http://www.whatkilledkencallow.org.nz/
There are nine forestry safety inspectors for NZ .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9482077/Forestry-deaths-unacceptable-MBIE
http://youtu.be/1C173XZZ0do (John Deere 909 leveller with winch assist) A number of these and other various brands are going into the forest now. There will still be places these cannot get to so manual chainsaw felling will be required and other innovations are being developed.
http://www.nzif.org.nz/Folder?Actio... 2012 Survey and European Review - 171012.pdf
There were two reported forestry deaths at the time of the conference. The NZ media is not allowed to report details of deaths that are the subject of coronial inquiries and the media only report a few things- name, location.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11164727 (2 deaths)
The 'workers organisation' in NZ started a renewed campaign this year for safer working environments for workers in high risk work environments.
This is one associated with forestry workers.
http://www.whatkilledkencallow.org.nz/
There are nine forestry safety inspectors for NZ .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9482077/Forestry-deaths-unacceptable-MBIE
http://youtu.be/1C173XZZ0do (John Deere 909 leveller with winch assist) A number of these and other various brands are going into the forest now. There will still be places these cannot get to so manual chainsaw felling will be required and other innovations are being developed.
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T-MAR
Active Member
I'll leave this here. ETA for the T-MAR LogChamp 550 is late spring 2014.
-Tyson