Are Scrapers Becoming Obsolete?

[tripper_174]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. I meet lots of guys asking me where they can get on out in Alberta and make the big money. When I ask them what they operate they will say they can drive a truck or a farm tractor or some such thing. Most people have no concept of the skill level required to be a good operator. Those that manage to sneak onto a seat find that it is very challenging, probably more than they can handle. These are the guys that leave a mess for a few good operators to clean up and rush off for their cheques, the only thing that matters to them.

Like you I can't understand where people can go onto a job and not have pride in the finished product. It kills me to see the sloppy work left by some people. I built base for streets and parking lots for years. I expected my base to look exactly like the paved product would be like, minus the black! I think it's the culture now. At one time all the older operators demanded excellence from the young guys. Now management comes from an office somewhere and some CET is running the job. There aren't the grizzled old foremen with years of knowledge mixed with a bit patience and a touch of nastiness...lol..! All I know for sure that I've solved all these issues more than once with a bunch of friends a a few bottles of very dark rum!

 

[Deeretime]

yea i think u and i r on the same page, the only thing is that u have to be good to do civil work i havent had a big dollar pipeliner come and impress me yet the only thing the pach was good for was wrecking more guys than it made.

Hopefuly this depression weeds out the crappy contractors and the wanna be oporators that can only bail dirt.

 

[Gavin84w]

Your bang on Mass X no two ways about it, my biggest customer has just won a 6 million bcm road job which has 70 m cuts and fills and they are mobilising 16 x 651E, 10 x 637G, 6 x D11R and all the rest of the gear that goes with it. Rest assured some pics will come and this would be the most decent scraper job on the east coast of AU in many years.

 

[Martin]

Wheres that job at Gav.

 

[Gavin84w]

Bruce Highway, Gympie in QLD Martin. 1/2 hour from Noosa

 

[alan627b]

Although I haven't worked much this year..when I do go to work I arrive with the attitude that I haven't learned it all yet. I work with a lot of guys younger than me who have the attitude that they know it all and don't need to learn any more. I've been on a 627 roughly 14 out of the last 17 years, and I know I don't know everything!
I sure hope this lousy economy turns around so I don't fall out of practice with what I DO know how to do!
I hope someday to work for someone who will teach me GPS so I don't become a dinosaur. I get frustrated not knowing more than I do...I guess that makes me a rare breed nowadays.
Alan627b , currently unemployed in Nebraska...

 

[xcavator120]

Being a newbie to the trade, having wasted my money on one of those scam-schools, and for the last 2 days having to operate a 615, I'll jump in here with my .02 worth.

First the schools just show you the very basic mechanics and techniques of operating machinery. How to do simple flat, level cuts, maybe picking up a wind-row, then dumping flat level and straight. Well yesterday went fine, as that's about what I was to do. Pick up wind-rows from the motorgrader. This was not finish-grade stuff, just building a haul road. However today proved to be a great learning day. Our haul-road is through a soybean field, at the bottom of a hill. We have areas that seem to have no bottom. So we laid down some mesh bridging material. This started by a tin-whistle we put in. You went up and over this tube, and just on the other side is where the mat was laid down. I was to dump between the tube and material. I had never heard of being able to dump while turning. Lucky for me another co-worker was able to explain how this was done. Not as easy as it sounds, especially when you have a narrow road, with beans on either side that can not be driven in. I finally managed, after having to back a couple of times so as not to run over and crush the tube, and about tipping the bowl over the edge.

Next while picking up material I managed to stick the scraper, on a slope. I tried what was shown to me in the school to free the machine. However it was just digging in deeper. I stopped before I went too far and got my co-worker that had a lot of experience. Learned something new again.

I knew coming into this trade that I only knew how to make them go. I cuss myself more than any super or co-worker, because I'm a perfectionist. Just in the last couple of days, while cutting, when I see small dips or gouges I get upset with myself, and start thinking on how to avoid that.

Enough with the "me" stuff.. How about the OJT, that one might get? I've been put on a machine that I've never heard of or run, and just told in about 30 secs how to run it, and then be expected to operate like a 30yr veteran operator. It also seems that there is a fear of being replaced attitude with the veteran operators. Some just don't want to provide any tips or help, ie; share their years of experience, when asked. Instead they just want to cuss you because you're not doing it how they would do it, or laugh at how dumb you look trying. I guess they were experts when they first put their butt in the seats, and probably were made fun of too....Better stop with this here, I could go on a rant with this...

On most highway and larger projects around here, I still see several various sized scrapers being used. From the little paddle-wheel scrapers to the larger push-pulls, to the pull-pans. So I really don't think that they are becoming obsolete. They just have the ability to move dirt quicker and more efficiently...

GPS... The company I'm working for, uses GPS, however only if the crew your on is lucky enough to get to use it for grade checking. The only machines that have any GPS setup are a motorgrader and a dozer. GPS is very expensive and with the current economy, this may be a tool that smaller companies will not be able to afford. It's not 100% perfect, it can mess up due to the surroundings, or just like any computer decide it's not going to work. Consider yourself lucky that you really don't need this. Seat of the pants beats GPS hands down.

 

[alan627b]

All right, another guy from the Midwest...I know a great Cat Guy from south of the Wichita area. What part are you from?
I know what you mean about being hurled in the seat with a bare minimum of instruction, and having to take grief from the "pros". They learned the hard way and expect you to also. Business as usual....
Don't sweat it, bite your lip and listen...but still realise you aren't there to take take grief from someone with an attitude.
Litttle humps and dips won't hurt anything, most little paddlewheels don't have the guts to load perfectly in anything but "sugar dirt".
As long as they're gone at quitting time, or if rain threatens, you are ok. Learn to make things smooth, it will make your own day go much easier, as well as everyone else's, even if they don't appreciate it!
Glad to have you with us.
Alan627b

 

[RKO]

627 Alan

Sorry you are still unemployed Alan.
The season is getting close to coming to an end for scrapers in Nebraska.
I don't know of any big dirt jobs around Omaha.
Seems like the poor economy is just starting to hit in the Midwest.
We are not slow but we are not months out like this spring.
There is some companies out there just bidding jobs to get some cash flow.
We lost a big job to a company that bid what the material cost just to have cash flow. They are from Ohio, poor company to do business with and had not had a job in six months.
The Pipe Line Crew crosses under Hwy. 30 last week so that job seem on time.
ADM in Columbus is/was looking for workers?? I know it would be a drive but it would be a job.
Call if I can help in any way.
Ron

 

[Deeretime]

Your bang on Mass X no two ways about it, my biggest customer has just won a 6 million bcm road job which has 70 m cuts and fills and they are mobilising 16 x 651E, 10 x 637G, 6 x D11R and all the rest of the gear that goes with it. Rest assured some pics will come and this would be the most decent scraper job on the east coast of AU in many years.


Thats an ideal scraper job it all jst depends what is in those cuts and what the terrain is like !
but if u mobilised a couple 1200's and fifteen 777's or 785's do u not think that they could compete? maybe not quite as fast but the thing i like about trucks is that as soon as its cut its finnished and i think that u can run that whole set up cheaper per m3 than u can run 51's and 57's Our small 350d's can cut and fill for 1.62 per m3
I know its not on the same scale but i thing that it would still be cheaper!

 

[Gavin84w]

Deeretime, apparently all other bids were with trucks and diggers yet this contractor won the tender by preaching the virtues of scrapers to the client, they have run scrapers for a long time and know them well and what they can do, shame there are not a few more around that would back themselves like that instead of taking the easy way out. Sure there is some rock in the job and they will dispatch a fleet of 50 ton trucks, maybe 8 but the job will be shaped to work as a scraper operation.

A key element with Australian road authorities is fill specifications and with a scraper you can just do big fills so much easier than when you come a long and dump a big 150 ton pile of dirt you then need a D10 to knock out. The scraper has dirt on the move to the fill as soon as the cutting edge hits the ground to be loaded and spreads it on the fill so neat the 825 just has to tidy it up and you are done, you just dont get that with trucks because the dirt stops and starts it,s movement to the final product so many times this is where the cost comes into it, tipping a load off a waste pile no question the truck is king but big roadworks and bulk dirt in construction the scraper rules when the material is right.

 

[xcavator120]

All right, another guy from the Midwest...I know a great Cat Guy from south of the Wichita area. What part are you from?
Alan627b

Been working the Ft. Riley and Manhattan area. We completed a few bigger jobs in Ft. Riley. Now we're getting ready to start the second phase of an airport taxiway/runway job. Most of the jobs we've been working are due to the "Obama bucks". The company I work for is Smoky Hill LLC based in Salina. I commute once a week from the eastern part of the state, staying in a motel during the work week.

Talking with my super just the other day about projects and bidding. He told me that there are more and more bidders showing up at bid lettings, and that they are submitting extremely low bids just to get the jobs. On our current job, on one part we were beat by another contractor by a mere $300. So there are 2 contractors working this small airport.

 

[alan627b]

Ex, I know what you mean, the local contractors around here have more competition for bids and lose to out of state contractors. And yet local goverments are always talking about keeping Nebraska money in Nebraska...
maybe they should have built a casino in Omaha when it would have made sense to do so!
Oops, too late...and now we have a 30 million dollar cable stay footbridge from downtown to an empty lot in Iowa...and we're getting a 60 miilion dollar ballpark that will be used mainly for 3 weeks a year (College World Series)..and another 40 million dollar stadium in my county so the Omaha Royals have a place to play.
Meanwhile, they city is going broke because they need to upgrade the city's 100 year old sewer system, which may require building a 3 mile long underground cavern to trap storm runoff, which normally empties into the sewage system during heavy rain, which pollutes the Missouri river. maybe they should have built this first? Doh!
You'd think there would be more work with all this construction, but it has been going to out of town and non-union contractors, and seeing as I'm a union operator, it doesn't help me much.
Could also be that union dirt work will become a thing of the past here in Nebraska before too long.
The outfit I worked for was the last big union dirt contractor in town, and it's iffy whether they will survive, partly due to slow work and partly to poor management.
Things are bleak right now. Might have to take a "regular" job for the first time in almost 20 years.
Alan627b

 

[RDG]

Reckon I might have to go and have a look at the Bruce highway job when it gets going as its only 30ks up the road from home. One of our diesel fitters at work lives within walking distance to it so keeps us posted as to the goings on. If things slow down to much more in the civil side in these parts , might have to think about trying for a job , done 40yrs on dozers,scrapers, graders, excavators and all the bits in between.

 

[ronnie]

the scraper will be around they are a versitle machine

 

[BigIron25]

Ex, I know what you mean, the local contractors around here have more competition for bids and lose to out of state contractors. And yet local goverments are always talking about keeping Nebraska money in Nebraska...
maybe they should have built a casino in Omaha when it would have made sense to do so!
Oops, too late...and now we have a 30 million dollar cable stay footbridge from downtown to an empty lot in Iowa...and we're getting a 60 miilion dollar ballpark that will be used mainly for 3 weeks a year (College World Series)..and another 40 million dollar stadium in my county so the Omaha Royals have a place to play.
Meanwhile, they city is going broke because they need to upgrade the city's 100 year old sewer system, which may require building a 3 mile long underground cavern to trap storm runoff, which normally empties into the sewage system during heavy rain, which pollutes the Missouri river. maybe they should have built this first? Doh!
You'd think there would be more work with all this construction, but it has been going to out of town and non-union contractors, and seeing as I'm a union operator, it doesn't help me much.
Could also be that union dirt work will become a thing of the past here in Nebraska before too long.
The outfit I worked for was the last big union dirt contractor in town, and it's iffy whether they will survive, partly due to slow work and partly to poor management.
Things are bleak right now. Might have to take a "regular" job for the first time in almost 20 years.
Alan627b

Alan, have you looked at working for Vrana or Hawkins? Neither are union but I have heard good things about both companies. And seeing with the amount of years you have put in with the IUOE I wouldnt see why Hawkins wouldnt hire you on the spot. Thier benefits package is supposed to be pretty good too. Its something im looking into if the IUOE doesnt work out good for me down here. Gotta make money one way or another. good luck to you, I hope you get work soon.

 

[alan627b]

At the moment, both Hawkins and Vrana are laying people off..it's that slow around here. And winter is upon us, it's in the 40's this week and we've had snow twice in the last three days. About 3 weeks earlier than usual this year, and the forecast is for a warmer than usual winter this year, which may or may not bring more snow. Yay.
Negus and Sons are supposed to be filing for re-organization, and I'm thinking that if they do survive , they will probably come back as non-union.
If that happens, it will probably be the end of union dirt work in eastern Nebraska, since they are/were the last big contractor with union affiliation in Omaha, and the smaller oufits won't stand alone.
Our local is kind of odd, it is basically divided into heavy highway (dirt) and building trades (construction) contractors.
Hawkins doesn't do their own dirt work on a large scale, they own no scrapers ans do what earth moving they do with hoes and trucks.
Or sub the dirt work to other contractors.
Vrana is primarily a bridge and road paving outfit.
I have primarily been a scraper operator for 12 out of the last 16 years, and done quite a lot of "seat time" on compactors and wheel tractors,
with lesser degrees of experience on dozers and loaders, graders etc.
I have done finish work, but don't consider myself a finish hand, at least by the definition other contractors probably would.
it might just be my personality, level of confidence or just plain opinion, but I think I'd have to learn more about grade checking and plan knowledge to be a real finish hand. Better eyesight couldn'[t hurt either, I can't see a tenth at a thousand yards like some guys I work with! LOL!
We'll just have to see what the future brings.
Alan

 

[BigIron25]

At the moment, both Hawkins and Vrana are laying people off..it's that slow around here. And winter is upon us, it's in the 40's this week and we've had snow twice in the last three days. About 3 weeks earlier than usual this year, and the forecast is for a warmer than usual winter this year, which may or may not bring more snow. Yay.
Negus and Sons are supposed to be filing for re-organization, and I'm thinking that if they do survive , they will probably come back as non-union.
If that happens, it will probably be the end of union dirt work in eastern Nebraska, since they are/were the last big contractor with union affiliation in Omaha, and the smaller oufits won't stand alone.
Our local is kind of odd, it is basically divided into heavy highway (dirt) and building trades (construction) contractors.
Hawkins doesn't do their own dirt work on a large scale, they own no scrapers ans do what earth moving they do with hoes and trucks.
Or sub the dirt work to other contractors.
Vrana is primarily a bridge and road paving outfit.
I have primarily been a scraper operator for 12 out of the last 16 years, and done quite a lot of "seat time" on compactors and wheel tractors,
with lesser degrees of experience on dozers and loaders, graders etc.
I have done finish work, but don't consider myself a finish hand, at least by the definition other contractors probably would.
it might just be my personality, level of confidence or just plain opinion, but I think I'd have to learn more about grade checking and plan knowledge to be a real finish hand. Better eyesight couldn'[t hurt either, I can't see a tenth at a thousand yards like some guys I work with! LOL!
We'll just have to see what the future brings.
Alan

Wow im glad you told me that! It would have sucked to move up there just to be in a worse situation. well its like anything, things have to get better eventually. What about Kiewit, they contract out IUOE dont they? I mean I realize that they are just headquartered out of omaha and probably dont do alot of work but I figured they might win or bid on alot of projects there. Does 571 cover the whole state? It is 571 right? its a bummer work is so short right now :/

 

[alan627b]

Bigiron, Kiewit does a lot of construction work around here, but they usualy contract out the big dirt work on their projects. As far as building work goes, I think they are doing pretty well at the moment. They won the contract to build the new Sarpy county baseball stadium the Royals will play in, and I think they are doing the stadium downtown as well.
Local 571 primarily covers the eastern part of the state, and they have agreements as far as pipeline work goes. 234 covers Iowa.
McArdle Grading out of Elkhorn got the dirt on the Sarpy stadium project, and from what I hear they will really ahve to bust a hump to get the required dirt moved by years end. Possibly double shifts.
If nothing else, it might give me some good photo opportunities!
They have a bunch of 621's and 627's, and a lot of trucks.

Too bad they are non-union, although the way things are, that might not stop me from applying.
I have to look out for #1, and that's me, not the hall.
Hope nobody gets PO'ed about that, but that's the truth. After all, they have had 9 months to put me somewhere, and it hasn't happened. I'm not alone, I'm sure.
Just slowly going broke, that's all.
alan627b

 

[BigIron25]

Bigiron, Kiewit does a lot of construction work around here, but they usualy contract out the big dirt work on their projects. As far as building work goes, I think they are doing pretty well at the moment. They won the contract to build the new Sarpy county baseball stadium the Royals will play in, and I think they are doing the stadium downtown as well.
Local 571 primarily covers the eastern part of the state, and they have agreements as far as pipeline work goes. 234 covers Iowa.
McArdle Grading out of Elkhorn got the dirt on the Sarpy stadium project, and from what I hear they will really ahve to bust a hump to get the required dirt moved by years end. Possibly double shifts.
If nothing else, it might give me some good photo opportunities!
They have a bunch of 621's and 627's, and a lot of trucks.

Too bad they are non-union, although the way things are, that might not stop me from applying.
I have to look out for #1, and that's me, not the hall.
Hope nobody gets PO'ed about that, but that's the truth. After all, they have had 9 months to put me somewhere, and it hasn't happened. I'm not alone, I'm sure.
Just slowly going broke, that's all.
alan627b

They are building a stadium in sarpy county? haha when I was growing up there wasnt much going on in Sarpy county. I used to live out off of highway 80 down the road from the Flying J truck stop in Gretna. It used to be quite a commute to omaha but hell now omaha is making its way to lincoln. Id love to see some photos of the project if you get down there to take some! And I hear you 100% about looking out for #1. I dont blame you one bit. Its all about financial survival now.