Allis Chalmers HD16 questions

[cb88]

On the undercarriage can the parts from say a newer HD16 retrofit to a 1960 D16? There is a local guy parting a later model out. Or does anyone have a source for those parts? I think the tractor is mostly sound except for that missing bushing. The model of the tractor in question is a D16A.

The tractor I'm working on has a missing/broken outer rear bushing its just gone... and I need to replace it. Might need to replace stuff on the inner side also not sure yet.

Depending on how far I get (still deciding if this is a go or no-go) on this I'll definitely be following up and detailing my progress.

 

[cb88]

Actually I think its a 1956 not a 1960

 

[Mcrafty1]

I can't help you with this issue but I hope you can get what you need, I always thought the ACHD's were a good machine, As a young man (in the 70's) I worked for a logging company that had HD16's and an HD6 they were good machines to operate, they had their weak points (all machines do) one of the big ones on the HD16's was the axles, they would strip the spines. Usually not a big deal to replace but costly as is everything dozer related. I believe obtaining parts is getting to be an issue with the AC's today. Good luck keep yours up and running.

 

[1693TA]

Do you have the parts missing in the photograph and are they in reusable shape? Looks like that tractor has been apart a long time exposed to weather from your photo, but the resolution is quite small.

I don't remember any bushings in there. Only roller bearings, seals, seal followers, shims, and the like. Here is a snip from an HD-11 manual and they are very much the same layout up to and including the HD-21 series tractors:

 

[1693TA]

I can't help you with this issue but I hope you can get what you need, I always thought the ACHD's were a good machine, As a young man (in the 70's) I worked for a logging company that had HD16's and an HD6 they were good machines to operate, they had their weak points (all machines do) one of the big ones on the HD16's was the axles, they would strip the spines. Usually not a big deal to replace but costly as is everything dozer related. I believe obtaining parts is getting to be an issue with the AC's today. Good luck keep yours up and running.

Victims of full engine power direction changes. They did that a lot but mostly in the sliding gear transmissions and direct drive setups. The power shift versions brought the driveline torque up with a slight delay, (or dampening effect) greatly reducing this scenario.

Many times this shaft right here as #16, or the gear shown as #17:



Or the driver of #17 shown here as #'s 1, & 5:



Beauty of fixing most of this stuff was only mostly common mechanic's tools were required as OZDozer referenced in another thread.

 

[cb88]

I bought a parts manual so I can munch on all this info a bit more.

It looks like the track bar has been patched and broken off again, I was initially thinking this was just a missing part not having noticed the huge welded patch on there I don't have the bearing housing... so it would have to be sourced from another machine. I might entertain fabbing one from scratch if it were a hobby machine but I need it to work in the near term.

I haven't bought it yet but its close to scrap price it failed to sell at auction I'm sure nobody wanting to use it day to day would want to deal with this out the gate. Honestly myself am not sure its worth it.

here is a video of the machine audio isn't great but I can hear the engine isn't 100% up to snuff either but it is running at least. Might be several things, water in the fuel? stuck injector.. or worst case a bad IP or head issues. Since this is the lowest HP model of the 844 engine I kind of suspect water in the fuel.

The guy that has it current did drive it on and off the trailer as it is... so the transmission at least is probably working, dunno about the status of the clutches though.

There is another machine being parted out locally but it is a newer model so I dont' know if the track bars, bearing and axles are the same or not does anyone here know that? If that is the case I'd have a local source on replacement parts, but if not there is another dozer another 4 hours away in non running condition that might work as an alternate to this machine, its non running but might just be a fuel pump etc... or I might be able to nab a fuel pump / IP from the local part out machine for it.

The end goal would be for this machine to push down about 1.5 acres of small/medium trees, then live the rest of its life maintaining a 35 acre farm and 1 acre pond. The tipping point here is can I build a machine out of this cheaper than I can hire a local dozer guy to do the 1.5 acres of trees that he doesn't even want to fool with anyway, I think the answer to that is probably, also in the future there will be several thousand dollars of work on the farm most likely. The last cleanup of the farm was about 7k... I'd like to keep that as a max upper limit on what I spend so scrap price on the dozer + around 2-4k of repairs does that sound crazy to you guys?

 

[1693TA]

If it were me, I'd look for a Fiat-Allis 16-B series if that size is what you are after. 100% A-C engineering and design under the decals at the time of production. This one appeals to me as a parts donor machine as it does run and move but things have been let go for a long time. If it can be purchased for scrap value, it is probably worth the money useful for another tractor with better undercarriage condition.

Though a very good tractor up until the late 1970's before Fiat *Fucked* everything up about Allis-Chalmers construction division, they were a pretty good unit as parts were supported fairly well.

 

[cb88]

That's what I needed to know basically i guess... No use buying a money / work pit.

 

[1693TA]

That's what I needed to know basically i guess... No use buying a money / work pit.

I would keep your eye open for a tractor with less problems out of the gate. There are still several parts machines out there for the Allis but you need something good to start with as a baseline. Although that one is inexpensive to acquire, the ongoing costs and time will not be into the future. Best use that type tractor as the parts donor.

I have a first quarter 1975 build Fiat-Allis 11B which had it been built just 1.25 years earlier would have been branded, Allis-Chalmers HD-11 Series B just as a Fiat-Allis 16B is. After 1/1/1974 anything not yet completed at the plants was branded Fiat-Allis in black lettering of the same font as the former. Almost anything Allis-Chalmers designed, (construction division) was replaced with Fiat designs by 1978.

 

[OzDozer]

I'd have to opine the undercarriage on the HD16 was 99% the same from the first HD16 to the last.
They use a 7.88" pitch track chain which can be converted to Cat D6 8.00" undercarriage with some modifications.

As to final drive internals, I couldn't be sure that the first and last of the HD16's all used the same internals - but A-C were one of the few companies who didn't change much in the drivetrain design just for the sake of change.

This is part of the reason why some A-C's developed a reputation for unreliability, A-C kept chasing the HP increases, to be in front when sales involved HP output.
So the A-C engineers kept upping the engine HP output of succeeding models, often without the necessary strength upgrades to the drivetrain.

A-C's are simple to work on, and repairs are generally cheaper than other brands - if you can acquire the necessary parts. They use a lot of taper roller bearings and don't use fancy housings, castings or mega-dollar highly specific parts as many of the "premium" manufacturers do.
If you have access to a machine shop and a cheap source of good used parts, you could fix an old A-C pretty cheaply.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Victims of full engine power direction changes. They did that a lot but mostly in the sliding gear transmissions and direct drive setups. The power shift versions brought the driveline torque up with a slight delay, (or dampening effect) greatly reducing this scenario.

Many times this shaft right here as #16, or the gear shown as #17:

View attachment 287390

Or the driver of #17 shown here as #'s 1, & 5:

View attachment 287391

Beauty of fixing most of this stuff was only mostly common mechanic's tools were required as OZDozer referenced in another thread.

The shaft I seem to remember is #16 in the top diagram. The splines were too fine in my opinion and would strip off where the shaft met the #17 gear. But it's been 50 years and those were the only AC's I remember working around.

 

[1693TA]

The shaft I seem to remember is #16 in the top diagram. The splines were too fine in my opinion and would strip off where the shaft met the #17 gear. But it's been 50 years and those were the only AC's I remember working around.

Been almost that long for me also but from what I remember the sprocket shaft shown as #16 really needed all the pressing force stated and the sprocket nut tight to protect that end. If the outer bearing on the roller frame end got loose, or worn, this shaft, and the mating splines on gear #17 would wear both axially, and tangentially from the axle moving around as the dynamic loading changed directions. This means power into a push, transfer of power from forward, to reverse, etc. Over time this "sliding" action of the parts would open up clearances with eventual stripping of the splines as you mention. This coupled with the Allis, (or owner) tendency to increase engine power without beefing up the driveline, (as OzDozer mentioned) led to catastrophic failure of parts. This would be discovered really quick when the operator went to turn the tractor and after pulling the steering clutch on the desired direction, the tractor either went to neutral, or got really noisy on the still pulling side. In my limited experience, many times only this shaft was replaced and the driving gear left in place which exacerbated the problem into the future. Never made sense to me to change only 1/2 of a mating pair, but as an apprentice only, not my job(s) as I only did the pulling and pressing with company equipment.

 

[D6 Merv]

Be aware that HD16D/DC/DP were all 74" gauge, and HD16-B are 78" gauge. So the axle shafts will be different. Along with the complete track frame. Rollers and chains will all be interchangeable.
Am reliably informed by a man who did it; that if HD16DP and 16-B late enough to have segmented sprockets; segments from a komatsu D65-12 will fit straight on with a small amount of grinding on the segment ends where they meet. He showed pics of the komatsu segments on his 16DP. Just abit of useless info that might help someone one day.

 

[cb88]

Be aware that HD16D/DC/DP were all 74" gauge, and HD16-B are 78" gauge. So the axle shafts will be different. Along with the complete track frame. Rollers and chains will all be interchangeable.
Am reliably informed by a man who did it; that if HD16DP and 16-B late enough to have segmented sprockets; segments from a komatsu D65-12 will fit straight on with a small amount of grinding on the segment ends where they meet. He showed pics of the komatsu segments on his 16DP. Just abit of useless info that might help someone one day.

Even if it ends up not helping me it still may end up valuable info to someone that finds this thread thanks!

 

[hd16b]

Hey Merv. Here are the pics of the Komatsu segments on the hd16, they will work on the 16dp and the series B tractor. There were two Undercarriages for the 16, one up to sn 5901 and one after. The final gears are different from a round nose 16 to a series B, the early ones had a forward gear fester than reverse, the series B is opposite. Also all the shafts and bearing are Bigger on the b o

 

[hd16b]

Pics of my 1968 HD16DP