Advice on Buying a Excav. w\ Bad Control Valve, Will it Load Metal in Hyd. System ?

[HighFly27]

I'm Looking at a -- 1999 Samsung ES 280 LC with 39XX hours. The 280 is really nice looking and shows low hours as well.

I found a -- Control Valve for the ES 280 today, it was used (from a 1400 hr.'s. mach.), the price is $ 7,000.00 dollars. I called Volvo and they will get back to me, it will be special order... estimated new at $ 14 K.

The guy that had the dismantled SE 280 (was a roll over) said that he'd steer away from the 1999 SE 280. It's quite possible that the Hyd. System is Loaded Up with Metal. I'd be in big ($$$) trouble with pumps, everything is subject to being crippled by a Hyd. System with lot's of metal going thru it.

I'm a retired hvy. mechanic and did mostly engine work and know all about gutting out a engine with metal.

So, My Question... is this SE 280 a machine that You'd Run from !?! My bid is $ 15 K for the ES 280. I see the Samsung SE 280's selling for a average price of -- $24 to $ 34 K.

Earlier, I figured about $ 5 K for the Control Valve, now it's $ 7 K, and used & as is. If I got into the Hyd. Pumps, then another $ 10 to 12 K and parts only. So, the add up math is -- $ 15 {hoe)+ $ 7 {valve) + $ 12 K {pumps) = $ 34 K and No Labor.

I'd like to hear from the folks that have been down this road before {Failed Control Valve) ! What did You Do to return your machine back to service ? Did you replace all the Major Hyd. components or Not; .... or did your Hyd. Components Fail a Short Time Later because of Metal in Hyd. System ?!?


I heard this SE 280 Control Valve is made by Toshiba. It's a Twin Module Design, the halves are piggy backed to each other.


Thanks'

Avery

 

[overworked]

Who says valve is bad, what is the story. I'll start with that question.

 

[HighFly27]

Overworked and All,

I'm sorry, this is all I know from the Description of Sale Listing. It States.... Control Valve Bad, Under Carriage Good, Cab Condition Good, Electrical Works, Starts with jump (weak battery's I assume), Runs & Moves, Hours 3,954; it's a good looking machine too. The pedals and everything in the cab looked A OK, nothing looked abused. I magnified the pictures up to 300X to see things as close as possible, it's a 3954 hr. machine.

I assume the FL State mechanic diagnosed the SE 280 with the Bad Control Valve and they parked it. I assume that some of the hyd. functions were greatly diminished for them to park the SE 280. Someone, blamed the Control Valve for the Hyd. Problem.

I'm like a parrot... just repeating what the 1999 Samsung SE 280 listing reads. If you have some other view point.. I'd like to hear them.

Note: Expected Complete Hyd. Sys. (pending) Failure; I see the hyd. filters doing their job. It all depends where the failure is and the spreading of metal debris before the hyd. oil get's back to the filters and catch screens. If other hoe's had -- Control Valve Failures, then this would be a common place deal... everyone would be saying.. if this happens then you'll lose all the other hyd. major components in short order.

Thanks for Your Time,

Avery

 

[Mobiltech]

Most of the time a control valve sticking or failing is due to debris either coming back from a cylinder failure, a motor or a pump failure causing the control valve spools to stick and score the spools.
I would bet that there is more to this problem than just a control valve.

 

[HighFly27]

You're right, something had to lodge in the spools and score the spool and spool body. So, how bad is it going to be... pumps, cyl's and big bucks.

I already bid $ 15 K on the SE 280 and if no one bids more than that... I'll own it. I can't afford to lay out more than $ 10 K to fix it. Yes, I have the money to replace everything that's broke but I'll be sort of broke and not a happy camper. I could have bought a running machine for $ 34 K and used it 500 hours and resold it. I bid on this SE 280 because of it's low hours, low wear and did not look abused. No, it was not a paint overall job, I moon lighted for a outfit that did this all the time.

I've cleaned up spool's & valve body's from minor nicks from metal debris with crocus cloth/ or 600 grit wet/ dry paper and a fine stoned brake hone.

I have a friend that's a tool and die maker and he's very good, can repair about anything that's close tolerance. I'd look into repairing the Control Valve myself. I'd consider -- Re-chroming the Spools, undercut them -- .005 or so and re-chromed back to Spool Spec. OD. The Spool Body is a different story, I don't have a answer for the body repair yet. I need to get about 500 hours out of the machine and I'm done with my big pond job. Someone else can worry about fixing anything that happens to the SE 280 after that.

Anyway, we'll see what happens if another dummy outbids me... I'll walk away smiling.


Avery

 

[uffex]

Good day Avery
Just to give some additional information the spools are of bright high quality steel, these are made in differing diameters to match to casting.
Kind regards
Uffex

 

[trackdoc]

I'm a sucker for buying this type of thing !!!
I would not touch this on the information you have gave.
I would want to go see the machine, and speak to the guy that diagnosed the problem, or at least read the report.
If it's a cylinder problem, only 1 spool should be giving problems, as the oil is filtered on the way back to tank.
If it's a swing motor problem, again just the swing spool would be damaged.
I work on Cat's and they have the case drain line for the travel motors connected to the case drain for the swing. So in this case a failed travel motor can take out the swing motor via contaminated case drain oil, which again is filtered on the return to tank.
I don't know how the case drain is routed in this machine but it is common to have only 1 case drain filter so the motors can probably contaminate each other.
If on the other hand you have 1 complete side of the control valve giving problems, then it is a pump problem.
Bearing in mind you have 1 pump for each side of the control valve.
Sorry to go on

Steve

 

[JBGASH]

My advice is stay away from it, find one that does not have a hydraulic issue. You are risking a hydraulic issue with debris floating around in the system- this is a nightmare....

 

[HighFly27]

Everyone,

I called and talked to the Shop Foreman about the Samsung SE 280.

He told me that the problem started when the Dipper Stick would Not Go Out, all other hyd. functions were OK. They brought the 280 to the shop and found (1) Spool Valve and Body Scored. They dressed up the damaged area and put it back together. The Dipper Stick Functions a Little Better but the Control Valve Must Be Replaced... Control Body too Badly Scored by Metal Debris {caught between the spool and body bore).

So, that's the Story, What are Your Thought's on this SE 280. I Understand that the entire Hyd. System is Loaded Up with Metal and will take the pumps out, etc. . I'm still high bidder and bid's are not retractable... so I might own it.

Has anyone had the Spool Body's Repaired. I'm familiar with having the Spools Undercut and Re-chromed back to the original OD. However, repairing the Control Valve Body is a different matter. The system pressure is 4980 PSI and anything that circulates in the system is like a missile and does a lot of damage. Depending where the Control Body is Damaged, a Fly-Cutter could undercut the damaged control body out and a Repair Insert Ring could be installed in the control body and pinned in place. However, this repair would be very close (.0001" to .0003) tolerance work; only a handful of shops in the USA could do this level of work {it's a possibly).

Same question, does anyone know of a Good Shop that Specializes in Repairing/ Rebuilding Control Valves !?!

I have one price on a Control Valve, it's $ 7,000.00 used. it's off a 1,400 hour SE 280 that rolled over and their parting it out.

*** Closing Humor -- I bought a 37 Ft. Islander Sailboat and it's on stands about 150 ft. from my house. I can see this SE 280 as (too expensive to get & keep running) a possible anchor point for the sailboat. I'm prepared (37' sailboat) for another flood or like catastrophic event. However, it may be a little $$$$ pricy for a mooring anchor point .


Thanks'


Avery

 

[tctractors]

Highflyer, I get plenty of these valve block dramas, on all makes of excavators, metal in the spool valve (as already said) usualy starts from a cylinder with damage such as a bent rod, this scores up the cylinder putting metal chips into the check valves, then on down to the spool valve to that service, this often jambs the spool into a live position so with just starting the engine the excavator will move on that service without touching any control, I firstly drain the oil tank then remove the failed cylinder for repair, strip out the check valves and pipe work joints etc to the valve block, then pull out the spool and insert an extending magnet placed into a bit of plastic pipe so the magnet cannot foul up in the block lands, this will pull out any metal chunks with a bit of effort, then fine polish up the spool with wet and dry paper, then I use an adjustable reamer welded to an !/2" drive long extension bar to clean out any nick's in the valve block body, I then build up everything and oil the tank but dont connect the cylinder pipes to the repaired cylinder, but loop them together and work the spool then do the trick with the magnet a few times not forgeting to vent the tank before you pull out the spool, the cost is the repair of the failed cylinder plus the labour time, I re-fill the tank with the same drained oil pumped back in useing my kidney pump, I would have done plenty of these knacker ups without any trouble so dont think you need a "Micron" finish in the valve block etc, with the adjustable reamer you only clean up the damage in the block you dont cut out a bigger bore (Although you could??) after all this activity it will work as before.

tctractors

 

[HighFly27]

TCT Tractors... You're the Man,

I've cleaned up some spools and valve bodies on older equipment.. was years ago. I was concerned about the higher pressure (4950 psi) system. If I had a severely scored valve body, say it had a few groves that were .015 to .025 deep.. would that leakage there.. be a working problem ?!?

No matter, I'd try it, what's the worst that can happen, it's already scored. I have lathe where I can polish the spool up. Have you used ever used a Fine Stoned Brake Hone to Clean Up the Spool Bore's. I've had good success with a -- 3 stone hone, the stone grit is 350 to 400 < I think that's about right.

Would you consider -- Pulling of the Hyd. Pumps and Inspecting them ?

Would you Flush the Hyd. System, 2 X's and Replace & Inspect the Hyd. Filters after 8 hours of Run Time ? I realize that's a lot of Hyd. Oil to $$$ Buy. I have a pump that pumps diesel with a (2) Element Filter System, the 2nd Filter is a Water Filter. I think this pump filter system will flow hyd. oil thru it, just a slower. I'd drain all the Hyd. Oil on the 2nd Flush and let it Set Out in a super cleaned drum. I would not pull (about a 3" stand off) hyd. oil off the bottom of the drum to allow the particles to remain on the bottom.

I'm trying to keep the Major Hyd. Components from Wrecking themselves with metal debris. I've learned to cut the filter heads off of filters and pull the webbed filter element out. You look in the bottom of the element vee's for metal or particles.

I've saved a lot of customers engines from reading the engine oil filters in high hour machines in time to prevent a rod/ crankshaft failure. Normally, the filter will have just a few small flakes; when you see several, and their copper.. it's time for a Bearing Inspection and/ or Rod & Main Bearing Replacement.

How would you find the Bad Hyd. Cylinder. Today, I learned that the Dipper Cyl. was Slow to Retract and the Spool Valve to the Dipper Cyl. was Scored Up. Would you start with the Dipper Cyl. and then go from there ?

I don't see any external leaks on the Hyd. Cyl's. but this was by looking at the pictures, not looking at the actual machine.

How would you find the Bad Cyl., if it was Not the Dipper Cylinder ? It would be quite a effort to pull all the cylinders apart by guessing. It may be possible to stick a bore scope in thru the hyd. fitting line hole and look for a scored cyl. barrel. I'm a retired aircraft mech. and used a bore scopes to inspect turbine engines. Turbine engines have inspection ports to go thru the turbine case and inspect the turbine blades. I'm not trying to get rapped around the axle on this deal; just trying to find the bad cyl. without guess work and random disassembly.

Again, Thanks for Your Advice, I Appreciate It.

Thanks,

Avery

 

[tctractors]

Highflyer, you might be putting Airplane tech into something a bit more basic, the spool I would only polish up by hand consentrating on the damage areas, the hone thing is not for me as the adjustable reamer I can control,plus I have never seen a 3 blade hone in dinky size to fit a spool block? the duff cylinder is usualy easy to spot with a bent rod or score marks, my only worry is its been messed with by the "Unknown" the swingers I get to work on I am the first person to tackle the spool pulling saga and take my time to strip out this item limiting damage, by removing the pipe fittings into the faulty spool you can remove a good amount of junk jambing the spool before pulling the spool out, the metal is in the valve block and filters not the pump, as for flushing the oil x2 thats not for me, I hand clean the tank, strainer and filter housings, stick in new filters then Kidney pump the oil back in and top up oil level, then get my coins job done.
tctractors

p.s. the U.K. digger men dont like to buy oil, some owners think it should last forever???

 

[Cmark]

Highflyer.

In a situation like this, oil sample analysis is your friend. Being from an aviation background, I guess you're familliar with this?

If you have a Cat dealer nearby, drop into the parts dept and buy a couple of sample kits at around $30 apiece. You don't have to own a Cat machine, they'll analyse anything you want.

Take a sample before you start the repair to give you a base line. After (not "if", think positive ) you get the machine fixed, oil and filters changed etc. run it for a few hours, take another sample and compare it to the first one. It'll take out the guesswork and may save you a load of farting around flushing oil and changing filters.

 

[Delmer]

I can't add anything to what TCT said, other than being messed with by somebody unknown, it sounds like this is being sold directly by the state of Florida? My experience with state sales is that they have NO reason to hide ANYTHING and they won't mess with something one second after the decision has been made to sell it. The foreman has no reason to hold onto a problem, just sell it and let the higher ups figure out how to replace it.

I don't mean to rub it in Cmark, but I paid $110 for a 10 pack of SOS kits last time, so yeah cheaper than oil. But listen to TCT about using a kidney loop, filter cart, or whatever you call it.

 

[HighFly27]

Tctractors and Cmark and All,

I'm getting the Big Picture now and some of the things I was thinking about are not necessary, thanks for the corrective advice.

One thing, since the dipper stick cyl. spool (Control Valve) is scored up, I will disassemble this hdy. cylinder 1st. If I don't find a bad dipper stick cyl./ piston problem... what then ?

I had already planned a Oil Analysis Program for the SE 280, including engine. I'm big on cutting filters open and seeing what's trapped in the element webbing. When I had my own repair shop open, I serviced a couple fleet accounts. I always checked the filters on high time machines/ high mileage highway trucks for my customers. I saved them some big money when I found the engine making metal (lots of copper flakes, etc.). I found the tip of a gear tooth on the mag. oil pan drain plug of a D8-N. I pulled the pan and with a bright light and small flex mirror I found the chipped gear in the nose case gearing and replaced the gear. The gear had a small porosity in the tooth of the gear and fractured out, The 8N had about 1500 eng. hours on it when I found the gear tooth. I don't know how long the gear tooth tip was broken off and finally found it's way to the magnetic drain pan plug.


I was planning on taking the Hyd. Samples after I load (if I win the bid for the SE 280) on the lowboy to bring it home. I want the metal particles suspended in the oil. In the aircraft business, we call these hot samples and needs to be done within 15 minutes of shut down. The hot sample deal is not about the temperature of the oil during a sample. It's about capturing the suspended particles before they settle out to the bottom of the gear box or sump.


I assume that the Hyd. Oil has never been changed in this SE 280. I'm considering a complete change out of the Hyd. Oil at 3,9XX hours. I have read/ heard that Oil does Not Wear Out, but gets Contaminated with -- metal and non metal particles, grit/ dirt; combustion by-product dilution and high acid build up levels in the eng. oil. I've see high acid build up (never changed oil) in the eng. oil and attack the bearings, wrecking the bearing material (bearing failure).

Note: I explain myself to share my experience's to offer my point of view. I have acquired some knowledge in 30 years but always ask questions to get more insight to resolve a problem. I worked for a self made millionaire, he told me that he'd get 2 or 3 opinions from successful pro's in the business before he invested his money in a new business venture. He invested his money in -- buying & selling heavy equipment, govt. emer. jobs {floods, hurricane clean up, etc.), heavy equip. & truck dealerships and land fills.

So, acquired (comprehensive) knowledge is success -- saves money, makes $$$ money, quicker job results, lasting repairs, etc. .


Thanks Again,


Avery