Advice/Help Clearing Land

[SMLWinds]

Guys-I would really appreciate some experienced advice and opinions. I have a large tract of land (700 acres), of which about 600 is in timber. I am cutting the timber and would like to clear as much of the cutover land as I can to make open pasture/farm land. I have no experience in large machines or clearing land. I do have a skid steer as well an an 11K pound excavator so have some experience in compact equipment.

I plan to buy machines to clear the land and do a lot of it myself. I will also likely hire some folks to run the equipment while I am working my normal day job. I am not under any illusions about how quickly or easily this can be done. With that said, I do want to invest in equipment that can make the most of my time.

I am definitely getting a larger excavator and had planned to get a dozer as well. Some folks had suggested a track loader instead or maybe even a large wheeled loader. I have read about the pros and cons and it sounds like track loaders are very versatile but if you have an excavator, a lot of that versatility is unnecessary. I would spend up to about 200K total on good quality used equipment. My questions I would love help with are:

1) What size excavator? I know bigger is better, but is there a point where there isn't much difference? I have looked at a Cat 320 on up to Cat 336. The larger the machine I get, the more "used" it will be. I am blessed to have the means to buy nice machines and have the work volume to support a nice larger machine but don't want to spend a lot more money for a larger machine if it isn't going to make the job much faster.

2) Dozer, track loader, or wheeled loader? Why?

3) I am guessing the answer to that question above will be a dozer since I have an excavator. If so, which one? I had looked at a Cat 6D.

4) Lastly, anyone have any experience with a Rotor S or similar machine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVAJT2ThP-4
I know that one is on a tractor, but they make an attachment for large excavators as well. I know Cat is working on a similar attachment but it isn't ready for market just yet (the rep told me it keeps "ripping the arms off of the machines with the torque.")

Thank you in advance for your assistance! I really appreciate folks who have experience and expertise taking their time to help someone like myself who is searching for advice!

 

[Tones]

Have you got any pic's of the vegetaion and terrain that you want cleared? Without them it's hard for anyone to give a honest opinion.

 

[clintm]

The clearing guys around here use a D8 with a KG blade to bust the stumps out and follow behind with a D6,D7 or D8 with a rake to clean up. If you are going to have to pay operators you should check with some large clearing companies that have experienced operators and equipment you may get it done cheaper than you think especially if you are not in a big hurry and they can work it into their schedule between other job's. You can tear up a lot of equipment clearing and stumping. I assume that you are going to burn debris there is an art to that process also.

 

[whitemike]

Tones, makes a good point, how old was timber at harvest? In Ga. if the cut-over was plantation pine, you can save a ton of money by letting it sit a couple years ( longer better) stumps just rot away. Older naturally regenerated large hwd. and pine benefit some by this method but the regeneration starts right back and you have that to deal with. So thats when a large 30 ton excavator starts digging stumps. You can get by with as small as a CAT D5 to rake to a windrow to burn. A tracked machine works better on uneven ground than a rubber-tire rake. Sir you have alot of land to clear and you have a day job, folks like myself do this for a living and i am along way from getting rich at it, so hiring it done could be your least headache cause your not gonna save much money ( i've seen alot try this, then equipment and operator problems start, it begins to drag out and i get hired to clean up mess and finish. Put two different operations on it at opposite sides, you can tell in a week who stays and who goes!

 

[SMLWinds]

Thanks for the responses. I do have a few pictures, but they are just now cutting the timber and haven't done the chipping of debris yet. I can tell you that the land is pretty flat and that the majority of the stumps are in the 12-18" range. There really aren't a ton of stumps bigger than that. The majority of them are pine, with a fair amount of mixed hardwood in certain portions.

What is a KG blade? So the guys down in NC don't even use an excavator and just rip things out with a large dozer? If that works, that would be pretty easy since I could buy one really nice piece of equipment.

I also appreciate the advice on options. I have checked and typically hear $1500-$2500 per acre to clear. In contrast, I know some farmers who have experience running this equipment who are willing to do so for $15-$20/hour. Furthermore, I have the ability to write the equipment off my taxes which cuts the price in half and also have some other jobs (building 5 or 6 ponds and other tasks). Lastly, I freely admit that I just want the equipment and want to do as much as I can myself. So, there is some desire to be somewhat economical and get it done in a somewhat reasonable time but there is also a good portion of "fun" for me included in the plan.

 

[SMLWinds]

Thanks again for the response. There is a good mix of different tracks on this land. Some of the acreage is 20-30 year old pine but some is natural regeneration that is likely 50 years old. The whole tract is not consistent so I honestly have a little bit of everything.

I do know and realize that a professional could do it much, much faster. I am not wanting to spend 2 million clearing the land ($2500/acre) so I figure I'll start doing it and what gets done gets done and what doesn't doesn't. I can replant some in pine and harvest again in 20 years and clear more later down the road. Basically I plan to somewhat do it professional except I will have much better equipment than the guys around here and I will be paying their employees looking for extra work. So, the same operators will be on the machine, I am just buying the machines (because I want them and I want to do some myself) and cutting out the company owner who would otherwise be making money without personally running the machines full time. I have taken this approach with my skid steer and mini excavator and I have already paid for the machines and saved money doing it--plus I have machines sitting in my yard to use and play with.

It is going to be an evolving process, but I do know I want to buy the equipment and do as much work as I can myself for fun, not as much to save money.

 

[SMLWinds]

I am also open to options on what to do with stumps. Obviously windrow burning is an option but I had also thought of a large mulching machine instead of fire in order to return nutrients to the soil.

 

[td25c]

What is a KG blade? So the guys down in NC don't even use an excavator and just rip things out with a large dozer? If that works, that would be pretty easy since I could buy one really nice piece of equipment.

That's my favorite tool as well for clearing & bustin trees & stumps .

http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2647&viewfull=1#post2647

http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2537&viewfull=1#post2537


Rome Plow's page http://www.romeplow.com/Wholegood Spec Sheets/KG - Clearing Blade.pdf

 

[SMLWinds]

I've done some research on KG blades. They look pretty cool but most things I see talk about shearing standing trees or using them to pile stumps. I haven't seen a whole lot about actually getting the stump out of the ground. Are they superior to other blades for removing stumps from the ground? Thanks again!

 

[clintm]

You split the stump in the middle with the stinger and it rolls that side out then back up and turn then push the other side out if it's to big just split it again

 

[td25c]

Just Like Clint said , bust the stumps in half's thirds or quarters depending on size . After they bust the games over and they peel out easy .

What I like about the K/G blade is you can run it on top of the surface sheering or drop it below & plow it out . We push & shove to the pile with it and finish with it back blading . They back blade real nice , like having a 10,000 pound 12 foot wide concrete trowel on the dozer .

They really work good on woods that has been timbered . This time of year grass & weeds grow 5 foot tall where ya caint see the stumps . Just drop the K/G & walk in easy , when ya hit a stump tractor will shift sideways instead of getting yer teeth rattled with a strait dirt blade

Stinger also works good as a pitchfork to lift & carry tree tops off of stumps & get them out of the way .

Heck they will even move dirt , can pioneer in a road with it , plow in a fire brake . Only thing it don't like is rock .

Very versatile old school clearing tool if you know what to do with it .

Only time I like an excavator over the K/G blade is in soft ground where it wont support a dozer grinding around .

 

[whitemike]

I have watched the large paper companies in my area run over there land with a KG blade to prepare it for pine replanting, not to get it ready for farmland. I am sure it has to do with operator but he would dodge large stumps that caused him hassle and many stumps were just left with tops sheared off, which is fine for tree planting. Back to price-time, when a farmer finds a piece of land and wants to install irrigation and put into cultivation next planting season, the race is on for him even if he has some of the clearing equipment himself because most wait to after harvest and work during winter months. The price runs from $800-$2000 to get it ready for the cutting harrow,lots of roots.Which is a right-off also). But it sounds like you want to do it yourself and buying equipment gives you instant tax right-off and you do build equity also. A excavator is made to dig, which is same as getting up stumps, it is comfortable to run, much cheaper to operate than a large dozer and more versatile.( use smaller tractor to rake with)Burning your windrows still leaves the same amount of carbon as mulching and is so much cheaper. If you want to really move material out of way fast and deal with it later, put a large articulated dumptruck out their with you and dig stumps while he hauls into out-corners, then load him with excavator, then dig somemore. At end of day you can see your progress instantly.

 

[Tones]

SMLWinds, I'm going to throw a possum in here. All the talk of dozers and KC blades,burning timber heaps etc in this day and age is so much a bull shyte way of clearing land. All the evidence is there in the photos posted of the amount of unesseray ground disturbence just to get stumps out and thats only the start. Then you have to shove them across your land to a heap for burning, more ground disterbence. So you fire up the heap, it gets nice and hot, every things looking hunky dory but you are killing the soil under the fire and nothing grows there for years. Bugger.
Now another way of cleaning up your land and having it look pristine is to use a combination of forestry mulching and stump grinding. First off run through with the mulcher and what I call rough cut the slash. Then grind the stumps below ground( 4" for grazing, 10" for cultivation) and leave the rest of the stump in the ground, its never going to harm anything there. At this stage its time to broadcast grass seed over the worked area and final cut. This runs the seed into the mulch and from there germinates. Because it's above the soil the seed gets the first water when it rains and gets a headstart on any weed that may poke through later.
So their you have it, a real simple eazy way of clearing your land and getting pasture all in one operation and without any soil degredation.
Also note worthy is, Cheap and Good DO NOT belong in the same sentince. Dozers and Excavators are cheap


PS. A 140HP stumpgrinder can do 100 , 12"-18"stumps 4" below ground per hour in old plantation rows. What can a KC blade do in an hour except make a mess.

 

[whitemike]

Sounds good for running down those smaller plantation pine rows, gonna be alittle change of pace in that 20-30 year old, and change some more in the 50 year old natural regen. Also keep in mind you need to build ponds later, a mulcher, stump grinder, or KG blade not much help there. If you dont want to burn in field walk excavator (it can also core your ponds, pile dirt, load trucks, dig ditches,fill holes,etc.) down rows, let a articulated dump truck stay backed up to you, should be able to do 4 rows at a time. A good operator doesn't have to churn up ground. Haul to edges or out spots, grind, mulch, burn later or let rot.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Tones. Interesting comments but I do think it's horses for courses.

The forestry mulchers may have an application but I think it is a bit over the top to suggest it is a superior method than the traditional dozer in all cases.

There is a high cost to begin with (I would be interested in your numbers) and with most of our Queensland species you can be absolutely certain the country is going to need a follow up spray . . . probably several sprays in fact.

Forty inch rainfall country is going to need applications of lime and nitrogen to get the bugs working or nothing grows the mulch except for suckers.

I would also question your comments about cooking the ground with fires. The standard pass with the three tine rippers or cutterbar down the windrows and they become the most productive part of the paddock. You can see the windrow and pile footprints in green with a quick fly over . . . in the heyday of the brigalow development the aim was to fly seed into the ashbed.

Some of the hot fires of the Arcadia Valley did in fact do some damage but these were exceptional, probably the hottest scrub fires that ever burned. It recovered with a few workings and is now some of the finest grain country around.

I saw about a thirty ton an excavator with a large mulching head working North of Bundy and with an eighteen foot cutter rake on a D6 I could have done in a day what he did in a week . . . the mulching looked good though.

Incidentally have you ever seen (say) even an old D8h with a cutter bar popping out stumps? (big grin)

Cheers.

 

[BigIronGuy]

I'm a huge fan of the trackloader with a ripper in this application. Invest in properly outfitting the machine and keep your excavator around the brush pile and a little extra support for ripping larger roots. They are significantly higher ground pressure and depending on the area, that could pose a problem. There are a lot of options out there, but a track loader offers speed and versatility in this application with a durability factor that cannot be ignored.

 

[td25c]

SMLWinds, I'm going to throw a possum in here. All the talk of dozers and KC blades,burning timber heaps etc in this day and age is so much a bull shyte way of clearing land. All the evidence is there in the photos posted of the amount of unesseray ground disturbence just to get stumps out and thats only the start.



Also note worthy is, Cheap and Good DO NOT belong in the same sentince. Dozers and Excavators are cheap

No worries Mate . That possum will come a runnin out of the bush when the K/G comes through .




We disturb the hell out of the ground hoggin trees & stumps on clearing & dirt jobs . That's what customers pay me to do . Like my old Granny used to say , " ya gotta bust a few eggs to bake a cake " .

You just hit the nail on the head Tones .


The Dozer and excavator combination is the most versatile & cost effective solution for clearing & dirt work and that's what SMLWinds should be looking at . Both can be outfitted with special attachments for clearing . Or just run them as is ,it aint that complicated .



Unstoppable combination Mate .

 

[SMLWinds]

Mike-you understand where I am coming from here. There is a monstrous tax break for me, gives me fun, equipment I can use for other tasks, etc. Those are all reasons I am buying equipment and not simply hiring this out. Yes, there is no big rush for me. My income next year does not depend upon getting crops onto new ground ASAP.

Tones-I appreciate your contrasting opinion and would love to hear more.

I had researched the mulching options some. The problem was that they only get down to ground level. If you do that, what kind of stump grinder do you use to get the stumps 4" or 10" below grade for usable land? Can someone post a link to what you would use to get the stumps below grade?

Has anyone seen or used the Rotor S I mentioned initially? Here is another video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0TTEmoMuw
They make an attachment for an excavator as well. That looks to be the ideal machine--grinds and mulches the stump while also getting it down as far as 2 feet below grade! It looks like an ideal option to me, but I hesitate to strongly consider one without an experienced opinion!

For what it's worth, I don't want to waste any money but if there is a machine out there that would really make this job tremendously easier I CAN afford it--doesn't mean I want to waste money, but I am blessed to have the capabilities to buy expensive equipment if it makes sense. I had looked at the large Fecon forestry mulchers--they are great but I just didn't know if it would help me accomplish my goal since it only clears down to ground level and not below grade.

Thanks for everyone's advice and input--I have already learned a lot!

 

[lantraxco]

My $.02, and it's worth less than that, get in a mobile tub grinder, big excavator with a coupler, narrow bucket/single tooth ripper, and a thumb. Yank the stumps out in one pass, let them dry a while, follow up with a dozer and root rake to clean and level the soil, then on the next pass with the tub grinder next to you, shake the stumps free of as much dirt as possible, throw them in. Haul mulch off or plow it in with some nitrogen rich organics, whichever seems most sensible. Fire is a waste of a good soil amendment. YMMV

 

[hvy 1ton]

I'd be looking at a 24-30 ton excavator with a stump harvester and a dozer with a rake and heavy offset disk. Stump harvesters are great for breaking down stumps, but have a couple downsides. They make having a thumb the rest of the time harder and need to be pin-on or wedge lock to keep the bucket breakout up.