About to buy 2020 259D3, couple questions

[Traut811]

Hey guys.

I had a thread a couple months ago trying to decide between a new 259D3 and a t66. I went with the T66, but long story short the lead times are really long and I'm about to pull the hammer on a 2020 259D3 locally and cancel the BC order just because I sold mine and am without a machine right now.

I haven't been in a CAT for 4 years.

-I was hoping for the automatic ride control, I was going to order the option on the new CAT I was looking at buying. I didn't see the switch. It is also missing the "2 speed" sticker but assume it was just washed off. Is there a way to verify options based on the serial number of the machine somewhere?

-One thing I noticed, is it seems when you go to lift and lower the bucket, the lift cylinder where it connects to the lift arms kicks to the side maybe 3/4" on the pin when the bucket is lowered. Is this normal? Picture attached.

-Anything in particular to look out for on these? I somewhat know the owner and he seems like an honest guy. He said there have been speed sensor errors pop up a few times. Is this indication of the drive motor sensor going out or is it an error that just "happens" sometimes?

-I guess the backup camera just automatically pops up when it goes in reverse? Excuse my ignorance on this one, I always added CabCams to my other machines on a separate screen that was "live" all the time.

Thanks in advance!

 

[92U 3406]

Seems like a common thing with the arm lift cylinders on Cats. There aren't shims for those cylinders, at least as far as I'm aware.

The drive motors do seem to be a weak point on Cat tracked machines. Seen issues with the flushing spool in the motors lots. It was available seperately though.

Bear in mind as a mechanic, we only see the broken machines. I have no idea how common drive motor issues are out in the real world overall, only that it was one of the more common issues we'd repair at the shop. Actual feedback from an owner would probably be more insightful.

 

[Nige]

It is also missing the "2 speed" sticker but assume it was just washed off. Is there a way to verify options based on the serial number of the machine somewhere?

Not all machines are sold as 2-Speed. With a S/No it's easy to check if a particular machine was built with 2-speed or not. Same comment applies to auto-level.

Anything in particular to look out for on these? I somewhat know the owner and he seems like an honest guy. He said there have been speed sensor errors pop up a few times. Is this indication of the drive motor sensor going out or is it an error that just "happens" sometimes?

Anecdotal information seems to suggest that any sort of particles stuck on the nose end of the speed sensor will throw up faults that can come & go. The solution appears to be change the final drive oil on a regular basis. Many people do it every time the engine oil is changed. Black oil in the finals is not a good sign of regular oil changes...!! The oil is a synthetic SAE75W/140 (there is NO substitute) and it takes 1 litre per side. FYI new travel motors are now close to $6k a side.

 

[92U 3406]

Not all machines are sold as 2-Speed. With a S/No it's easy to check if a particular machine was built with 2-speed or not. Same comment applies to auto-level.
Anecdotal information seems to suggest that any sort of particles stuck on the nose end of the speed sensor will throw up faults that can come & go. The solution appears to be change the final drive oil on a regular basis. Many people do it every time the engine oil is changed. Black oil in the finals is not a good sign of regular oil changes...!! The oil is a synthetic SAE75W/140 (there is NO substitute) and it takes 1 litre per side. FYI new travel motors are now close to $6k a side.

I believe the speed sensor is located in the motor itself on those assemblies. Usually see chunks when the flushing spool shims start coming apart. There was an update on that spool, no idea if it was better as I left shortly after the new parts were released.

I have seen the 2 speed piston in the motor go out before. The bore in the housing itself gets oblonged/ridged. Motor will still kick into high speed but it will lag a bit and cause a noticeable mistrack to the bad side when shifting on the fly but will even out once the piston unsticks.

 

[Nige]

I believe the speed sensor is located in the motor itself on those assemblies.

I agree, but isn't it also exposed to the oil in the final drive as well.?

 

[92U 3406]

I agree, but isn't it also exposed to the oil in the final drive as well.?

I don't believe so. From what I remember the sensor only has the one o-ring on it and any time I've pulled it I believe it was hydraulic oil that weeped out the hole.

 

[Nige]

In that case I stand corrected.
I'd recommend pulling the sensors and cleaning the nose end. I guess a lot depends on the cleaniliness of the hydraulic oil in that case.
The comment regarding frenquent final drive oil changes still applies though. Confirmed the oil is an API GL-5 synthetic, SAE 75W/140. I was wrong, most recent price on a new final - $7200.

 

[Traut811]

You guys are awesome. Thank you for the help.

The S/N for reference is CW905975.

The research I have done lead to replacing the sensor and seeing if there are still issues, the harness itself getting rubbed from debris up against it and exposing wires, or the motor itself going out. He said drive motor oil was done @ 250hr intervals along with the normal fluid changes. The machine has 1630 hours on it, and unfortunately is out of warranty due to age (2yr/2000hr warranty I assume). A warranty could still be added but if I remember correctly only covers the powertrain and no electronics. The price for it did not seem cheap though.

EDIT: Over $7k for a final drive, ouch! Maybe that warranty is worth looking into if this is a common failure. Honestly, I will be putting 100-150hrs/yr on it around our place doing odds and ends with occasional yard shaping and grading for people. It'd take me 3 years to get it to 2,000hours.

 

[92U 3406]

Definitely want to watch the drive motor hoses where they pass through the frame. They always rub there. I'd armor those hoses every time I replaced them. On the rental fleet I'd pull the covers on the frame and inspect the hoses after each rental. If you keep on top of it and replace the hose protectors when they wear thin the hoses will last a long time.

 

[Nige]

The S/N for reference is CW905975.

Machine CW905975 was built with both 2-speed and auto-level ex-factory.

It was also built with the RH Advanced Display Panel which is a major bonus for you when looking at machine Events or Diagnostic Codes. I would suggest to have the current owner show you what Logged Events/Diagnostic Codes are registered in the RH panel. If you are worried about speed sensor issues look specifically for anything with E568, E569, 2685, 2686, 2687, or 2688.

TBH I would not suggest loading the parts cannon just yet as far as speed sensors/wiring go. Find out what Codes/Events are Active (as opposed to Logged/historical), troubleshoot them correctly and that will lead to the root cause of what's wrong. The speed sensors are not cheap.........

 

[Traut811]

Thank you again, guys. Honestly, the machine is pretty darn clean (not clean at all as I looked at it on a job site) but seems like it would clean up well without the paint falling off. A huge thing for me is there are globs of grease all over it. I would rather have this any day than something that doesn't get greased. They are an excavation company that has to have stuff in warranty as they can't afford downtime. It gets greased every morning.

Thanks for looking up the serial number. Dumb question, what does ex-factory mean? Auto level is different than auto ride control, right with auto level doing just that - leveling the bucket on either lift or lower? (or both, don't remember which was which between Cat and Bobcat)

I will write down those codes and look for them. Other than checking pin play I didn't actually move the machine around. It was on the site at a homeowners house and didn't feel right doing so. Are any of those, in particular, that should make me walk on the deal? I think the price is fair for the hours and year.

The rear camera just pops up on the panel when going in reverse, or is it something to manually enable?

 

[Nige]

Dumb question, what does ex-factory mean?

As originally built - by Cat in this case. There is a record of the accessories/options fitted to every machine as it leaves the factory production line but any changes made after that time are not documented.

Are any of those, in particular, that should make me walk on the deal?

In my opinion no. All 6 of them only relate to speed sensor and/or wiring issues which are usually perfectly solvable - probably quite cheaply. Best case scenario the problem could be nothing more than a wiring harness connector with condensation or corrosion in it, or the nose of a sensor needing cleaning.

The machine has 1630 hours on it, and unfortunately is out of warranty due to age (2yr/2000hr warranty I assume).

I may be wrong but IIRC the exhaust aftertreatment system is warranted separately to the machine for 5yr/3000 hours whichever comes first, and that warranty is not limited to the original owner.

 

[Traut811]

As originally built - by Cat in this case. There is a record of the accessories/options fitted to every machine as it leaves the factory production line but any changes made after that time are not documented.
In my opinion no. All 6 of them only relate to speed sensor and/or wiring issues which are usually perfectly solvable - probably quite cheaply. Best case scenario the problem could be nothing more than a wiring harness connector with condensation or corrosion in it, or the nose of a sensor needing cleaning.
I may be wrong but IIRC the exhaust aftertreatment system is warranted separately to the machine for 5yr/3000 hours whichever comes first, and that warranty is not limited to the original owner.

Perfect, thank you!

 

[Nige]

Auto level is different than auto ride control, right with auto level doing just that - leveling the bucket on either lift or lower?

From what I can see your machine is fitted with what Cat calls I-LEV (intelligent bucket levelling). See attachment. Ride Control is one of the few options it doesn't seem to have, although I suggest you should speak to the seller and ask because RC is available as an add-on kit as well as being available factory-fitted to a new machine.
The specification list of the machine is impressive. It is equipped with a lot of optional features not fitted to many machines.

 

[92U 3406]

Never operated the machines much with ride control on. Was only ever plowing snow in the yard and it doesn't work well for that.

Did get a literal TON of service calls because "the loader arms are going crazy." The ride control will automatically lift the loader arms up several inches once the machine reached a certain ground speed and then they'll float along. A lot of operators would freak out thinking the machine was broken lol.

 

[Traut811]

Auto ride control seemed nice as occasionally I have to move material a little ways with rough terrain. I had it quoted with the other machine, it was a $1,000 option. Bobcat has the same thing and it seemed nice. I'm sure it's fine without it.

I bet it is a little odd when the arms raise some to compensate for the buffer at a certain speed.

Nige, would you be willing to send over an options list of what this machine has? I'm guessing it would be a H2 C3 but just to have for documentation as well.

 

[Nige]

I'll send you it on a message.

 

[Traut811]

Good morning and happy Friday guys.

I got the machine home last night. It was late so didn't get much time to mess with it. There few things I need to address right off the bat. Boy, do I have some reading to do on these. Going from BC to CAT is going to take a bit to get used to again.

• The backup camera and backup alarm do not work. The alarm is no big deal, but I need the camera. Both fuses appeared good in the box. I pulled the side cover and boot off the joystick and did not see any sort of sensor or limit switch that would trigger the backup camera. When you go in reverse, nothing happens in terms of the display not changing.

• It was ~35degrees last night. When the machine sits and idles, it will rev to a very high idle and stay there randomly. As soon as you kick the parking brake off, it returns back to normal. Is this "normal"?

• I checked the codes. No active, but two errors were stored. The "!" was illuminated, I assume this is due to the two stored errors? No way to clear this? They were:
  • E875-2 (Machine) - Low system voltage - check the battery and alternator. I will stick a meter on the battery after it was off overnight, and check it running. I assume it should be pushing ~13.5-14.4V or so running, 12.4-12.8V when off.
  • E569-2 (Machine), one of the ones Nige said to look for - Unexpected left motor reverse speed detected, check the motor speed sensor and wiring

 

[92U 3406]

They will rev up on their own. Completely normal. It does that in order to keep it warm. Running at idle is hard on the engine and aftertreatment.

How cold does it typically get in your region? Cat does have some cold weather options that are highly recommended if you see cold weather often. Crankcase vent system heaters and a rear door cover. I've seen a couple blown engines because the crankcase system plugged with ice.

 

[Traut811]

They will rev up on their own. Completely normal. It does that in order to keep it warm. Running at idle is hard on the engine and aftertreatment.

How cold does it typically get in your region? Cat does have some cold weather options that are highly recommended if you see cold weather often. Crankcase vent system heaters and a rear door cover. I've seen a couple blown engines because the crankcase system plugged with ice.

OK sounds good. We are in Missouri so it's all over the place. Typically, the coldest it will be used in is 15-20ish Fahrenheit in the winter and up to 100 in the summer. We had wind chills at -30F for several days earlier this season but I'm not going out in it. The coldest it will be used very much in is 25-30 degrees. Otherwise, something very short-term for hitting the neighborhood driveways for snow a couple of times per season.