972H auto lift and auto tilt questions

[Monkeywithawrench]

So last week I was working on a CAT 972H loader serial A7D 00502. First complaint was the AC wasn't working. THEY said it was electrical. Other 'people' were poking through the wiring and said they heard a pop and smelled burned wiring. Also said that the Auto lift and tilt functions weren't working after that, and the auto luber wasn't working.
First problem.........AC. Because it was smoking hot out with ambient air temp at 93F I wanted AC inside the cab. Key on run, engine off, unplugged AC compressor and plugged back in. Solid 'CLICK' sound from clutch..........Ok......that's working. Pull gauges out.............solid run of AC problems and requests all week...........already went through 30lbs of 134. Hook guages up. High pressure showing 75psi and low pressure showing -16 (its either PSI or mmHg.......I never looked what the units were). System capacity is 1.9kg/ 4.2Lbs. Stuffed 2lbs in and watched vent temps. Went from 95F to 75F w/ 2 lbs. We're gaining. Added another 2lbs (Total 4lbs)........vent temp down to 60F and not going lower..........WINNER!! High pressure at 195psi...........Low pressure at 50psi. Condenser clean and air flowing...........evaporator........I have no idea how dirty it is.........too hot to pull seat and I'll take 30F+ of cooling.

Next........Auto lift and auto tilt.........As shipped product shows it didn't come with this feature. Must have been added on. Pull out laptop and plug in. Lift and tilt sensors out of calibration. Try calibrating both at once..............fail. Calibrate and watch duty cycle on Lift sensor. Calibrated and passed. Tilt sensor is junk. Duty cycle will show going from 50-40-30%, then jumps back up to 50%, then jumps down to 20%, then back up to 40% while cycling the tilt. No beuno.
Lever position sensors show correct positions. 0 at rest, and then whatever range it is at full lift/lower, curl/ uncurl.

Now the conundrum!!! According to operator AND the owner. When auto lift and tilt was working..........the levers would detent back in the lift curl position, hold themselves there until the bucket reached its set point on lift and/or curl. THE OPERATORS MANUAL says that you hold the lift and/or tilt back in the full detent position for less than 1 second the auto lift/tilt will operate to the set/ programmed position. Doesn't work with lower or auto level for the bucket..........this is according to the manual. I got the tilt sensor to calibrate so I was able to play with it for a bit. When you shut the machine off...........key off, master switch still on............upon restarting the machine, you need to reprogram the lift/tilt positions.
NOW according to the operator and the owner (2 different people)...........the levers went into detent and stayed there (when you pulled the levers all the way back, they stayed locked back until the programmed position was obtained). The auto tilt would auto level the bucket, and why you shut the key off and started it the next day you didn't need to reprogram the lift/ tilt. They have a 950G loader that works as they described above. Hold lever back and it detents the levers back until programmed position is arrived. And it doesn't lose its memory upon key off. They are expecting that from the 972 and are adamant that the 972 USED to work like this when they bought it a few years ago AND the memory was saved with key off. And then I get 2 different stories on how the functions worked from the owner and operator.
CAT tech support wasn't any help............depends on who you get. Whether they are good and give a **** or not. This guy doesn't care. Talked with my buddy on Saturday. He had called in on Friday and got the same guy........consensus, he sucks and doesn't care.

So..............anyone have a 972H w/ auto lift and auto tilt?? How does it operate for you?? The bad part about this whole thing is...........this 972H wasn't shipped with this function, according to CAT. That was something else tech support re iterated to me. And getting different answers from both the owner and operator doesn't help........just adds to the confusion. Its electrical, worked fine until 'THEY' touched it, blah blah blah

The AUTOLUBE is the same thing. It's a Lincoln Autoluber from 2008. No help from CAT. SKF bought Lincoln........tech support is non existent, it seems; from Lincoln/ SKF..........again, its just finding the right guy who cares and knows the product.........I just haven't found them yet.
Thanks in advance!!

 

[Jonas302]

I dont know maybe someone can look up the serial I would be the first to declare nonsense on a 972 being built without a bucket leveler and boom kickout

Some things to know on the lincoln auto luber if someone has took the line off and plugged it usually at the lower bucket pins the system wont work Each splitter block has a zerk on it that you can run a grease gun on if any lines are blocked or plugged it will stop working, The lube spinner should come on every time you cycle the key

Of course you better find that freon leak or you will be back next week

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

Running the serial number myself and then confirmed it with CAT parts. Asked them to run serial number. Asked if it 1.) shipped with Auto lube........NOPE. 2.) Looking up tilt sensor.........on SIS it says 'not shipped with tilt sensor, INVALID ON INVOICE' or something like that. CAT confirmed that for me.........but then, CAT and I are using the same serial number data base. This was on a HOT Friday afternoon at 3pm..........I'd had enough.

The Autoluber was working fine in the 'MANUAL' mode.........pushing green button. I checked to make sure that 1.) the divider valves had their push rods extedning showing they were cycling and operating in sequence. 2.) that all pins were getting grease while operating. So it works in Manual...........not sure if its working in AUto function. There is a green momentary switch in the cab. I thought it might be for the yellow warning beacon when I first saw it. Upon doing research on Lincoln autoluber.............found out it was a button for Luber. Ooohhh, yea..............no DATA plate on the luber. Just barely made out Lincoln on the old sticker. Its a P203 autoluber with only 1 Blue rotary dial. I found manuals showing a Red rotary dial and a Blue rotary dial. One dial for time off, and 1 dial is suppsed to be for time on pumping grease. I only have the Blue dial. There are 2 green LED lights on either side of this rotary dial. When not pumping, the green light on the left shows steady green (power on) the green light on the light, with pump not running; blinks 1 second on 1 second off. When pumping shows steady green light. Not sure if the blink is error message or something else.

As for the possible leak............I'll deal with that later. Way too many problems stacked up with other equipment. Need to get over the hump on back logged work.

 

[Nige]

Auto lift and auto tilt

Are you referring to the Lift & Tilt kickouts OR the “Aggregate Auto-Dig function”. Kickouts should be standard, the AAD is an optional attachment but can be retrofitted.

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

Hey Nige.............Thanks for chiming in.
Its the Auto kick out. The owner and the operator SWEAR that the lift and curl levers went into detent, etc. No auto dig.
It is funny that CAT shows it didn't ship with that (lift and curl kickout) and that CAT shows it shipped without the lift sensor or rotary sensor for the tilt as well. Mind doing some digging and see if you can come up with a different answer?? I'd need to pull the sensor, verify the part number on the rotatory sensor, and then order it as a customer supplied number...........no returns.............at $600.

 

[Nige]

Its the Auto kick out.

So you mean the Lift and Tilt Kickouts. If you do then they are standard, not optional. Even the electrical schematic shows both the sensors and the lift/tilt kickout switch as being standard equipment.........

I looked at the Config of your machine and what SIS is saying regarding the PWM sensors for lift/tilt, in other words the kickouts, is NOT CORRECT. I have come across this before. This system works most of the time but occasionally doesn't. Ignore it in this case.


If you want me to check further I'll need Part Numbers for everything you've been looking at to save re-inventing the wheel.

I'll send you the electrical schematic just in case you need it.

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

It is funny that CAT shows it didn't ship with that (lift and curl kickout) and that CAT shows it shipped without the lift sensor or rotary sensor for the tilt as well.

266-2337 is what isn't holding its calibration. The sensor on the curl/tilt linkage. And yes..........SIS shows 'Associated arrangement not referenced by invoice.

The lever sensors are working correctly and in spec. Its the OPERATION of the levers that I question. So the company has a 950G loader SERIAL # 5FW02256. On this machine............with (I guess) auto kick out operating............the lift and curl (tilt..........whatever) levers get held back in detent until the bucket reaches its set lift point and/or set curl point.............at which point the levers go back to the neutral position. On the 972H.........the levers do not stay in detent (you can feel the soft detent when moving them to their limits, but they don't engage and hold back the lever). Per the manual, you hold the lever back less than 1 second and the bucket will lift and curl to the set position you programmed.
The programming doesn't hold when you shut the machine off with key off, master switch still on........................the owner and the operator both swear that the 972 used to hold the programming when the key was shut off and you restarted the machine the next day.
The 972H and the 950G may be apples and oranges when comparing lift and tilt operation. I don't know. I haven't dug into both machines. Tired of arguing with the owner and the operator. They've given me some red herrings in regards to the problems on the machine.
Hopefully I've explained this so its understandable to you.
Thank you for the schematics................I have those on SIS. Gotta admit............hate the CAT schematics...........I feel they could be easier to read............but at least they are there.
We've got some wicked T storms rolling through right now!!
Quick story on the PWM...........my buddy and I were trying to help a co worker of his. CAT machine.............was talking to him and my buddy on a 3 way call trying to sort out an electrical problem. He kept referencing a wire ..........its the Pink with a white marker!! We're both looking on the same schematics.......we can't find the pink with a white marker...........which he has cut and spliced into. It suddenly occurrs to me he's talking about a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) wire. I end the call.........call my buddy back and ask him to clarify with the Mensa President (this guy was kinda thick). Sure enough.........Pink With a White marker is PWM. My buddy and I CONSTANTLY ask each other when we are dealing with electrical if its the Pink With a White marker wire or not?? Just as a joke...........its still funny to us.
Thanks again for your help Nige.............I appreciate it.

 

[Nige]

I'm having a hard time understanding what's going on. Unfortunately the way you explain it ain't helping. Sorry about that.
A caveat. The procedure below won't work AFAIK unless the position sensor (lift or tilt) in question has been successfully calibrated, maybe it even needs both sensors to be calibrated and you said earlier the signal from the tilt position sensor is all over the place.
So, if you........
1. Start up the machine.
2. Move the lift arms and set the bucket angle to the required positions, set the lift and tilt kickout points using the switch #28 in the RH headliner panel.
3. Do the lift & tilt control levers latch into detent and the lift arms or bucket rackback kick out at the appropriate points until the engine is shut down.?

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

3. Do the lift & tilt control levers latch into detent and the lift arms or bucket rackback kick out at the appropriate points until the engine is shut down.?

No..........the levers do not latch into detent. After you set the positions with switch #28. If you move the levers back to where you feel the detent and then release them...........the bucket will lift to the set position if you use the lift lever........the bucket will curl to set postion if you use the curl/tilt lever. But the levers will return to neutral position while the bucket lifts and/or curls to the set position. The bucket lift/tilt levers need to hit detent and then be released. anything more than 1 second of operation cancels the auto lift/tilt operation. And the control levers never stay in detent.

 

[Nige]

Have you replaced the defective tilt position sensor yet.?

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

No. The owner doesn't want to spend the $600 on the sensor. Especially since CAT parts was telling me it wasn't on the machine when it shipped. They say its supposed to work and did work like the 950G. I tell them and show them the manual states it doesn't and demonstate that it doesn't.
I did have both the tilt and lift sensors calibrated at one point during the day. Was able to demonstrate that the machine performed as the manual stated. showed the owner the wonky readings from tilt sensor on ET.
They still want to believe what they want to believe............that the 972 ran and operated just like the 950..........I'm full of crap and don't know what I'm talking about.........at least you got the AC working.............frustrating. Maybe their right............that the machine ran like the 950. I don't know...........so many machines out there..............not an expert on any of them...........wish I knew it all, but don't.

 

[Nige]

I already mentioned that Cat Parts information from SIS isn't correct......... Lift/Tilt kickouts are standard equipment on all Medium Wheel Loaders.
Leave them to it is the best I can suggest. Not worth wasting any more time on it.

I've worked on the implement electronics on quite a few of the medium-sized H-Series loaders before. The one thing I CAN'T recall 100% is whether or not just one of the kickouts will "set" if one of the angle sensors (lift or tilt) will not calibrate. NOTE: Neither of those sensors will calibrate if the signal it produces is outside a set MIN/MAX range value. Should come up with an error message IIRC.

Somewhere I have this voice in my head telling me that in order for the kickouts to work both sensors have to be a) calibrated, and b) generating "genuine" angle signals - in other words signals that are within a specific range of values programmed into the ECM software.

The only other thing I can come up with is to test the operation of the kickout switch itself because there is nothing on the panel to indicate whether or not a kickout has actually "set" when you press the switch.

Last thought is that re-flashing the Implement ECM with whatever the correct software P/N is could solve something. I've seen ECMs lose "bits" of programming before now, so nothing would surprise me.

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

Well........as I mentioned.........I did have them calibrated and the event codes (I think its the event codes..........active error codes) cleared out. Got both tilt and lift kick out working............didn't hold the control levers back though. I don't have access to new programming to flash the implement ECM........sadly.
It was later in the afternoon that the calibration for the tilt went out.

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

So in your years of experience............do you think the control levers are supposed to be held in detent until programmed set position is achieved??

 

[Nige]

Back to kickouts again..........
Attached is the Specalog (sales brochure) for the 972H. See the bottom of the LH column of Page 8.

 

[Nige]

So in your years of experience............do you think the control levers are supposed to be held in detent until programmed set position is achieved??

No. Taking the lift function as an example.........

When the lever is moved from the HOLD (centre) to the "soft detent" position you should feel an increased resistance from the lever. As soon as you feel the detent the lever can be released and will automatically return to the HOLD position. The lift arms will continue to raise until they reach the set lift kickout height.
In order to manually override the detent, the lever must be moved at least 6° from the HOLD position.
The detent will not be activated if the lever is held in the detent position for more than 1 second.

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

THANK YOU!!! I was beginning to think I was mis reading things. Especially when 2 guys who have a ton more hours with the machine are telling me the oppisite of what the manual was telling me.
Its the Pink with white marker wire............

 

[Monkeywithawrench]

I'm hungry...............what's for lunch?? I'll buy..........where do you want to go for lunch??

 

[Nige]

I'm hungry...............what's for lunch?? I'll buy..........where do you want to go for lunch??

Had mine hours ago, sorry. It'll be time for bed here soon.