966D Refurbish and welding

[Nige]

Interesting Nige. I have not tried measuring cracks with my ultrasound gadget. I’ll have to read up on that.

It's not definitive but U/S can give you an idea. If there is access from the back side of the section then moving the U/S probe over that back side surface (you'd have to smooth/polish it first) then it should show a discontinuity appearing when it passes over the crack and then disappearing again. The measured distance from the back side surface to the discontinuity should give some idea of the location of the root of the crack. A bit of simple maths and you have the (very approximate) depth of the crack from the other side.

 

[Simon C]

As wqs said previously, not letting the linkage hit stops would make so much of a difference. We had an exact unit to this one in Northern Ontario 25 years ago. It had the same type of crack. We watched it for quite a long time and did not seem to grow any more. Eventually we had enough budget to buy a spare and change it out. When I left that place that unit had 70000 hours or more. Last I heard it had over 90000 hours. Every 10000hours rebuilt motor torque and transmission. I did the rear oscillating axle in it, along with the front differential once..They use to grease the whole boom every 8 hours religiously. These units made a good name for Cat in the mining industry. You should get lots of years of use.
Simon C

 

[Simon C]

If you have any problem with starting the engine, and find the batteries down in charge, Don't just get a new alternator without first checking a special plug that is about 2 feet from the alternator output post. It is I recall red in colour and about 6 Gauge in size, and has a bullet style plug that will burn out in time. I had to cut this joiner out and put in a permanent butt connector instead. We had changed out 2 alternators before this without finding out that as soon as the machine would turn on the lights the old connection would not carry the current. We had that on our 966F model also I believe. Hope it helps.
Simon C

 

[alaskaforby4]

As wqs said previously, not letting the linkage hit stops would make so much of a difference. We had an exact unit to this one in Northern Ontario 25 years ago. It had the same type of crack. We watched it for quite a long time and did not seem to grow any more. Eventually we had enough budget to buy a spare and change it out. When I left that place that unit had 70000 hours or more. Last I heard it had over 90000 hours. Every 10000hours rebuilt motor torque and transmission. I did the rear oscillating axle in it, along with the front differential once..They use to grease the whole boom every 8 hours religiously. These units made a good name for Cat in the mining industry. You should get lots of years of use.
Simon C

Thanks for the tips Simon, I'll take a look at that alternator connection while were in there. Any advice on re-sealing the throttle linkage shaft on injection pump picture there?

 

[Delmer]

Is it just the shaft leaking? or the plate also? if you can't tell, dry it off with brake cleaner and dust it with flour or other powder to see where it seeps out first. If it's just the shaft, I'd try to fish the seal out with a pick and replace it without removing the shaft.

For the cat guys, is cracking in that location typical? I'd be looking at the pin and bushings in that end to make sure they're not putting outward pressure on that "forked" end. You're not going to weaken it by grinding the crack out. Welding with nickle or SS rod would at least let you see if it keeps cracking.

 

[Nige]

Cracking in those areas isn’t exactly unusual. It’s often related to banging the tilt link against the stops on the lift arm. Seeing as the crack was already there when the current owner got the machine it seems likely that it happened in a previous life.

 

[Tugger2]

My experience with welding Cat castings goes back to the old 245 s when they first came out. Brand new ,ran by shovel operators building logging road. Lots of breakage from boom foot mounts boom to stick to the house being torn off the carbody. We kept lots of Arctec 223 xc in stock and used it for all welding repairs on the 245 s .I did this work in less then perfect conditions on cast parts and the fabricated steel parts with good success . The winter weather in the Queen Charlottes was less then desireable for this work.
Id have a go at digging those cracks out and run something like Arctec223 . I think youll get lots hours on them yet.

 

[Simon C]

Tugger2. That Arc-Tec 223 is the rod I use also. It has great elasticity and has served me well. Small stringer beads and peened after every pass. Also grind back out the weld starting point.. Welded a crack on the barrel of a hitachi 200 Excavator stick cylinder. New operator was a little hard on the machine but it still lasted 63 full truck loads before it let go again. It gave the owner enough time to find a spare cylinder and keep his crew of workers going. Propane torch warmed the area before the weld and cooled down slowly.
That was how I fixed that one that was leaking oil right out.
Simon C

 

[Simon C]

About your 966D Park Brake. We disconnected the grease line that feeds a steady bearing that is attached to the park brake drum. If someone decides to give 3 extra shots of grease to that line every day , eventually you will have a park brake drum with multiple tubes of grease in it. Just put in a grease nipple and give it 1 shot every week and all will be okay. We fixed 2 units to prevent this mess. Just to save you some aggravation.
Simon C

 

[alaskaforby4]

Thanks for all the information, will be heading over there tomorrow and will check and implement these ideas. I'll try and find some of that ARCTEC 223 rod to at least have on hand if I find a competent welder. I imagine one of the contributing factors is the down lever is incredibly sensitive, when you have a full bucket if you're not really on your game and just push down on it, the bucket will come down almost like its in a "float" position. It can slam into the ground, or stop in such a fashion it will bring the back tires off the ground. It will really wake you up, you have to be ever so gentle with your down movement to operate correctly. Id image the forces involved out on that lever are unfathomable. Ive looked at adjustment, but doesn't seem to be any. Must be an internal valving issue?

For the injection pump shaft, it is leaking out of the shaft only. The plate looks like it holds it on, or stabilizes the shaft. It doesn't look like I could remove seal without taking the plate off, but will take another look

 

[Nige]

For the injection pump shaft, it is leaking out of the shaft only. The plate looks like it holds it on, or stabilizes the shaft. It doesn't look like I could remove seal without taking the plate off, but will take another look

Without a machine/engine S/N to work from this may or may not be the same as your FIP.
#10 is a 5P-3272 Lip Seal, #11 is a 7N-8779 Gasket. If the existing seal has worn a groove/amrk in the shaft even a new seal might not fix the leak.
Hopefully someone like pumpguy can give you some insight on what to expect if you try to remove the cover.

 

[alaskaforby4]

Without a machine/engine S/N to work from this may or may not be the same as your FIP.
#10 is a 5P-3272 Lip Seal, #11 is a 7N-8779 Gasket. If the existing seal has worn a groove/amrk in the shaft even a new seal might not fix the leak.
Hopefully someone like pumpguy can give you some insight on what to expect if you try to remove the cover.

ooh, that will be very helpful. The new serial# after rebuild is 99y75580. I will get the engine number shortly. Attached is invoice from Cat to BP after work was completed. There are another mess of invoices totaling an additional $40,000, not including this $164,000 whopper

 

[Nige]

You're going to need an engine S/N, and preferably also anything off the FIP if it has a tag on it. The Certified Rebuild S/N for the machine does not show what the machine arrangement is - unless that is the S/N before the CR was 99Y05580, in which case details exist. The available details are from the original machine build in 1988 though, not from the CR.

For the FIP on the original engine S/N 08Z43959 installed in the machine the cover gasket is the same P/N, the lip seal P/N changes to 8T-2604 which is a replacement for 5P-3272.

 

[Delmer]

Even if you can't get the seal out, like welder dave said, a new seal might fit right on top, that would be on a different surface than the original if the shaft is worn. I wouldn't expect anything to fly out taking that cover off, maybe a linkage to line up, or some springs to pay attention to, I don't do pumps. If you want to slow down the bucket, a hydraulic orifice fitting in the "up" side of the cylinder will slow it down, or a needle valve even so you can crank it as slow as you want it.

 

[Mobiltech]

You can easily take that cover off the pump if you want. Remove the throttle arm first. Remove the bolts in the cover. Hold in on the shaft a little while pulling the cover off the shaft. The only thing behind the cover is the detent for shutoff position on the throttle. As stated I quite often use 2 seals to get a new position on shaft.

 

[alaskaforby4]

You can easily take that cover off the pump if you want. Remove the throttle arm first. Remove the bolts in the cover. Hold in on the shaft a little while pulling the cover off the shaft. The only thing behind the cover is the detent for shutoff position on the throttle. As stated I quite often use 2 seals to get a new position on shaft.

That is amazing! Gotta love the amount of knowledge we have at our fingertips with youtube. thanks for sharing

 

[alaskaforby4]

Here is the new number and engine number.

 

[Nige]

The 6NC engine S/N prefix replaced the 08Z prefix when it ran out of numbers @ 08Z99999. All tech info for 08Z applies equally to 6NC.

Being a much later engine than the original there are updated parts on the governor. The cover has changed so the gasket updates to 150-3728 and the seal to 138-9507.

 

[Welder Dave]

Arctec223 is basically 8018 with a much higher price. Eutectic has an equivalent to it as well. I deliberately botched an interview with Arctec. Head office is in Calgary and the boss was coming up to Edmonton and was supposed to do the interview after his other business but got tied up and couldn't do the interview. I said no problem just give me a few days notice when you come back to Edmonton. In the mean time I talked to people I knew in the industry and did a little research on Arctec. Arctec is a good product but very expensive. They do not make their own consumables though. One guy I worked with who's been in the industry since 1970 said Arctec sales people work on straight commission. Straight commission is great for established sales people with a built up clientele but not so great for someone just getting into outside sales that a big part of the job is trying to establish new customers.
About a week later I get a call about 3pm while I'm at work. I go outside on my break and the boss is coming up tomorrow and can Interview me at 1pm. I said I can't just leave, I need a little more notice than that. Fast forward and the Edmonton manager agrees to meet at a hotel restaurant after work a couple days later. I go there and am waiting at a table. About 15 minutes later I get a call the guy is in the parking lot. Fine, come in the restaurant (I'm not doing an interview outside). He comes in and sits down. Tells me a little about the job and says they are trying to establish new territories in Central and northern Alberta. There is a lot of traveling and some staying in motels. He asks if I have a reliable vehicle? Yes. Then I start asking some questions. Do you get a company credit card for gas and motels and meals? No, you pay for the motel and get paid back. Is gas covered? No, you get paid per Km. Again you pay out of pocket 1st. How much per Km? It depends so he can't give me even a range! Do you pay anything for vehicle wear and tear? No. (I had said earlier I wouldn't be comfortable on straight commission but a base salary and lower commission would be OK.) About the 1st thing he asked is if I'd be OK with straight commission? Not really as I had previously stated several times. If I'm trying to get new customers do you have samples I can give? We like to hire welders so they can demo the product, we don't really like giving product away. What do you tell potential customers when they ask why your product is more expensive than other brands? Nickel is expensive no matter who you buy it from. (Yeah but your's is typically the highest and not every rod has nickel). Do you have a bunch of long term sales people? I've been with the company about 7 years and 1 of the salesmen has been here 14 years but the other sales people have been with us for 2 or 3 years. That's a big red flag. How much do your sales people typically make? It varies but our top salesman makes over $70K. He never said what newer sales people make. At this point I pretty much lost any interest in the job. He asked me how I handle difficult situations with an employer. I gave him an example of my experience at WEM where I quit because of a total idiot manager. My actual boss wanted me to stay. Many, many employee's quit because of the idiot manager my boss was too afraid to stand up to.
The way I figured it, there was absolutely no risk for Arctec and I could be out money and have no idea how much income, if any, I would receive. Under the same circumstances I can't see any anyone let alone a qualified welder agreeing to the conditions. Maybe an established outside sales person who already has a good clientele but even then I think they'd want some kind of guaranteed minimum. At 1st it sounded like a great job and they were really interested in me. However once the fine print came out, I thought they were off their rocker.

 

[Tugger2]

Arctec223 is basically 8018 with a much higher price. Eutectic has an equivalent to it as well. I deliberately botched an interview with Arctec. Head office is in Calgary and the boss was coming up to Edmonton and was supposed to do the interview after his other business but got tied up and couldn't do the interview. I said no problem just give me a few days notice when you come back to Edmonton. In the mean time I talked to people I knew in the industry and did a little research on Arctec. Arctec is a good product but very expensive. They do not make their own consumables though. One guy I worked with who's been in the industry since 1970 said Arctec sales people work on straight commission. Straight commission is great for established sales people with a built up clientele but not so great for someone just getting into outside sales that a big part of the job is trying to establish new customers.
About a week later I get a call about 3pm while I'm at work. I go outside on my break and the boss is coming up tomorrow and can Interview me at 1pm. I said I can't just leave, I need a little more notice than that. Fast forward and the Edmonton manager agrees to meet at a hotel restaurant after work a couple days later. I go there and am waiting at a table. About 15 minutes later I get a call the guy is in the parking lot. Fine, come in the restaurant (I'm not doing an interview outside). He comes in and sits down. Tells me a little about the job and says they are trying to establish new territories in Central and northern Alberta. There is a lot of traveling and some staying in motels. He asks if I have a reliable vehicle? Yes. Then I start asking some questions. Do you get a company credit card for gas and motels and meals? No, you pay for the motel and get paid back. Is gas covered? No, you get paid per Km. Again you pay out of pocket 1st. How much per Km? It depends so he can't give me even a range! Do you pay anything for vehicle wear and tear? No. (I had said earlier I wouldn't be comfortable on straight commission but a base salary and lower commission would be OK.) About the 1st thing he asked is if I'd be OK with straight commission? Not really as I had previously stated several times. If I'm trying to get new customers do you have samples I can give? We like to hire welders so they can demo the product, we don't really like giving product away. What do you tell potential customers when they ask why your product is more expensive than other brands? Nickel is expensive no matter who you buy it from. (Yeah but your's is typically the highest and not every rod has nickel). Do you have a bunch of long term sales people? I've been with the company about 7 years and 1 of the salesmen has been here 14 years but the other sales people have been with us for 2 or 3 years. That's a big red flag. At this point I pretty much lost any interest in the job. He asked me how I handle difficult situations with an employer. I gave him an example of my experience at WEM where I quit because of a total idiot manager. My actual boss wanted me to stay. Many, many employee's quit because of the idiot manager my boss was too afraid to stand up to.
The way I figured it, there was absolutely no risk for Arctec and I could be out money and have no idea how much income, if any, I would receive. Under the same circumstances I can't see any anyone let alone a qualified welder agreeing to the conditions. Maybe an established outside sales person who already has a good clientele but even then I think they'd want some kind of guaranteed minimum. At 1st it sounded like a great job and they were really interested in me. However once the fine print came out, I thought they were off their rocker.

Its sounds like a job offer i would run from to. I guess thats why we dont ever see an Arctec salesman running around the coast here.I buy what need from our welding supplier and use it sparingly as you said its pricy. They make 3 products i swear by for bush work .The 223 for crack repair ,the ecoface 60 for buildup finicky things like churn bits , (no one in thier right mind churns for piling anymore ) the hardcro 63 small high wear areas.
Im no scientist on how this stuff works .The 223 seems to like those cracks that are impossible to clean out perfectly after air arcing . The ecoface 60 builds up very well when your trying to reshape a worn corner like on a churn bit ,the trick is to use your 4 lb hammer and pound it down to shape every few passes to work harden it. The hardcro 63 is single pass only ,really works after you have shaped your worn spot back to spec with the ecoface 60. try and pile the 63 on to build up and it cracks off ,single pass only wears really well.
I would not use this stuff in the shop on major repairs when thing are clean and dry , but out on the job when things need to be running the next morning its the answer.