953 3204 engine swap questions

[tcnicholas]

I have a 1981 953 LGP (05Z) with a 3204 engine that is showing signs of severe blow by thru the valve cover vent and when powering up to full throttle a noticeable knocking noise has surfaced. The unit started quickly and idled fine after sitting for a month, then the above knocking situation appeared. Upon restarting it took a while to start and idled rough, I did not take to full throttle again. I pulled the head and noticed no obvoius damage to the head, valves or turbo. I had the head off 2 years ago and noticed scoring on cylinder #1 and the piston was replace by a previous owner. I can not say if the scoring has worsened to the cylinder wall and oil consumption was about 5 qts for a hard 10-12 hr day moving clay in a very hilly terrain. I was able to get another couple of years of hard service.



I am at a cross road as what to do.
•I have a rebuilt 3204 engine (45V from a 943) sitting in the wings in anticipation of this coming day. The original engine from the 05Z is a turbo unit and the replacement engine from the 45V is normally aspirated. I believe the blocks and internals to be the same (please advise). The replacement 45V has a newer style head and injection pump. Do I do a complete engine swap with the turbo plumbing from the original setup and have the injection pump readjusted for the turbo setup or just change out the 45V block, swap over the head, injection pump and turbo plumbing from the original 05Z.

OR
•Do I attempt a "in machine" freshing with rings and bearings. This does not allow for any proper block maching or resleeving of the scored cylinder. Seeing as I only have the head off I can not see if any internal parts are damaged (no obvious holes or oil leaks)

Winter is approaching fast in Ohio and the machine will have to be repaired outside next to a garage. I am assuming the engine change from a 05z to a 45V is a valid change over in the first place.



Please chime in on a correct path to take and if the change over is doable and if a "in machine" freshing would be a complete waste of effort.

Thank you in advance.

Tom

 

[Georgia Iron]

Looking at the service manuel, the 43 and 53 fuel pumps are different. Having a scored cylinder would make me pull motor. I would use the good block and use the rest of the parts off the 53. I would look at the heads and if they are the same I would use the 43 head. 53 uses a beefier injection pump cause of the turbo. I would probably rebuild the turbo while it's out.

Don't cry over spilt milk and don't cry over wasting time with an in frame freshin up .

Welcome to the forums.

 

[tcnicholas]

Thank you for the advise and the welcome.
The 43 engine is completely re manufactured and has the newer style head. It appears everything from the intake and exhaust will bolt over to use the turbo from the 53. If I went this route I would have to turn up the injection pump.

If I went the 43 block route with the 53 head, I would just have the head checked out for any damage (nothing visual as far as contact damage) and it would be a bolt in from there. The turbo is a fairly new unit already and the 53 injection pump was rebuilt 2 years ago with limited use. Good advise. Thank you.

 

[pwking13]

I may be a little late at getting at this but the rebuilt engine you have should have the same compatible internal components. Why not just swap the injection pump,injectors and turbo to the rebuilt engine, install and go?

 

[DoyleX]

Ummmm im not mr know it all but usually normally aspirated engines have higher compression and faster timing. If the insides are the same bolt away!

 

[pwking13]

I'm no mr know it all myself, wish I were, but I own couple of dozers with the 3204 in them and have overhauled the engines in both of them, now I have complete rebuilding a spare engine which actually came out of a 953, 05Z, which I rebuilt with the now available 3 ring piston to replace the old 2 ring design.The engine timing is set when the #1 cylinder on compression stroke is locked in at he flywheel and the inj. pump pin is locked in simulataniously, the inj. pump gear is tightened with these pins in place and at this time the pump should be in time with the engine as far as I know.

 

[Mobiltech]

yes usually the non turbo engine will use a higher compression piston. The turbo 3204 uses a 3 ring piston now instead of a 2 ring.
We would need a complete serial number of each engine to compare them .

 

[Old Magnet]

I'm not that knowledgeable on 3204's but usually the turbo'd engines have oil cooling jets for the pistons and NA engines don't. In some cases it's just a matter of swapping plugs for jets if they have that provision.

 

[DMiller]

Have to pull the questionable engine either way, why not do a proper rebuild on what you know to be the correct engine for the unit rather than chance a premature failure of the other engine?

 

[Nige]

As per what Mobiltech commented above, in order to figure out what parts are common and what parts are different requires the Serial Numbers of both engines. There will be internal differences between a turbo and a naturally-aspirated engine, of that there is no doubt. The only question to be answered is if the differences in this particular case are deal breakers ...........

 

[tcnicholas]

The original engine serial # is 10x02045 arrangement # 6N6626
The replacement is 45V70036 arrangement # 7c3256
I remember looking at the engine block diagrams between the two and the part #'s for the blocks, pistons and rods were the same.
To answer an above question...the original block has a cylinder that is scored and I already have the replacement engine that has been remanufactured with the 3 ring Pistons. It was purchased long ago in anticipation of the day when the original engine got too tired.
I'm favoring switching the block and changing the head, turbo, and injection pump from the original system. I went ahead and had the original head freshened with a valve job, new guides etc.

Thank you for providing as much insight on this subject.

 

[Nige]

This could turn into something akin to War & Peace but here goes nothing ............

1. Trying to do a "compare consists" doesn't work because it automatically assumes you are working with the latest iteration of each engine which is obviously not the case here. Amongst other things it lists the cylinder block, piston & rod group, & front gear train as being different.

2. The rod and piston Group Number for both your specific engines is an 8N-4079. These are 2-ring pistons, 3-ring replacements would be a different Group Number but would still have the same compresion ratio.

3. The cylinder blocks are listed as different for both engines (1W-4327 vs 7N-4821) HOWEVER they both service to a 2W-7902 Cylinder Block As for Field Installation. That would give me the impression that despite any minor differences between the two block Part Numbers they are both basically the same block. There is info in the system regarding a new wider front camshaft bearing, maybe that's the difference.

4. The cylinder heads, despite being different Group Numbers (1W-6220 vs 1W-2280) both contain the same 9N-5819 Cylinder Head As.

5. The camshafts are again different (2W-1221 vs 9N-9549). However the 2W-1221 is the updated Part Number for 9N-9549 (the front camshaft bearing and tachometer drive were redesigned from engine S/N 10X02936-Up) so it appears the basic camshafts are again the same.

6. The crankshafts are different (1W-0401 vs 1W-9771) but both service to the same number.

7. The Flywheel & Flywheel Housing (4N-8063 & 4N-6458) are the same.

8. The front housings are different but that's because the 45V engine has a newer design of engine oil pump and a changed Part Number of the front housing that contains a different design of system pressure relief valve. I can't find any concrete information on the front gear group.

9. The fuel injection pump housings (body) are different, and one does not service to the other. I didn't bother going any further once I found that. My thought would be to have the complete injection pump & governor assembly from the original engine overhauled and replace/refurb the original injectors to run in the new engine.

10. Obviously all the parts relating to the turbo, etc, will need to come from the original engine, overhauled/replaced as necessary.

There might be a bit more info come to light with the S/N of your 953 (send it to me by PM if you don't want to post it here) because some sections of the Parts Manual are based on machine S/N not engine S/N.

 

[tcnicholas]

PM sent with unit serial #
The injection pump was rebuilt about two years ago. So I should be good on that front. So far I beleive I'm interrupting that this changeover will work using the replacement block and original head, turbo intake system.

 

[Nige]

Thanks for the machine S/N. Now I can tell you that the front gear group that drives the fuel injection pump is different. Although the two gears have the same number of teeth (33 & 80 respectively) they are completely different Part Numbers and one does not service to the other. Obviously you are keeping the injection pump from the original engine as we discussed above, you might end up having to strip down the front cover and use the gears from the original engine in the cover from the replacement engine. Not sure if that will work or not but at least be aware of it.

 

[tcnicholas]

I will dig thru the service manual and become familiar with what's involved. The engines are 3 hours away so photos and the manual will give me something to look into. Thank you again.

 

[Nige]

You're welcome. Post back again if you have any more questions. I must admit the issue with the front gear group was one I had not expected.

 

[kshansen]

I can't offer any real help in this project, but feel the need to say one thing. Keep very good and clear notes on everything! Like what gears, heads, fuel pump and cam you end up using. May save major headaches for you or someone else in the future!

If you end up tearing down the two to make one I'd keep the parts on opposite sides of the shop till the time to make one working engine!

 

[StumpSlinger]

I have a 953 with a crapped out engine as well, has anyone ever try dropping a 471 in something like this before?

 

[DMiller]

Would be a waste of Both the machine and the 4/71, Too low HP, Not enough value for torque, would dog a LOT as Hydraulic demands would eat it up. Cheaper, More effective as well More Saleable with a rebuilt engine that came in it.

 

[StumpSlinger]

What about a 3304 out of a 963?