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821c

partsandservice

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
I am having shift issues. As long as I don't go into F3 all is good. I have checked the wiring harness from tcu, and replaced the harness inside the control valve. All the solenoids had the same ohm reading. Also if I am not at a complete stop it will not change direction, so I have to go back to neutral then back into gear. Also, there are two wires joined together and connected to the master switch with a weatherpack plug a few inches away, if that connector is hooked up the machine will not power the cab and causes a circuit breaker in the electrical box to kick. If I unplug the connector all is good in the cab, but I have to pull the fuel shut on , with a bungee, to start the engine. I believe there may be short in some sort of timer module for the fuel shut off. Any help , wiring schematics or ideas would be appreciated.
 

partsandservice

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
Also this is a picture of the wires that must be unplugged to keep from kicking the cab power breaker. They are marked 13M and 13C.
 

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GaryHoff

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Feb 25, 2009
Messages
810
Location
Alberta, Canada
Occupation
Heavey Equipment Mechanic
13M goes to the fuel shut off solenoid.
13C comes from the fuel shut off solenoid relay.
Since the fuse doesn't blow with the wires unplugged, the short is between wire 13M and the fuel shut off solenoid.
I would plug in your wires by the master switch (13M and 13C), and then unplug the fuel shut off solenoid, and then see if your fuse blows. If the fuse doesn't blow, it is likely that your fuel shut off solenoid has failed.

As for your transmission issue, please advise on the following:
1. Does 4th gear work? You will need to shut off the machine, and start it with 4th gear engaged.
2. Does 3rd gear work in reverse?
3. Any other gears not working in forwards or reverse?
 

partsandservice

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Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
Thanks for the reply. This is what I came up with today, I can find 13M at the fuel shut off solonoid, it corresponds to the red wire on the fuel solenoid. I would think that should be the power /hold wire not a ground, with the white wire being the pull and black ground. It matters not whether the solonoid is unpluged or not. I did not have much time to operate it and get transmission to temp, however it Will travel in 4 th gear forward and reverse and it seems as though 4 th gear is too high a gear to start in and lugs the engine and won't come to full speed. I will get to temp and try each gear as suggested.
 

GaryHoff

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Location
Alberta, Canada
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Heavey Equipment Mechanic
If your fuse is still blowing with the fuel shut off unplugged, then your short is between the fuel shut off solenoid and 13m at the master switch. Trace the harness, and inspect the harness at any P clamps along the way.


Yes, 4th gear is a high gear to start in, but this is just for diagnostics.
There is no 4th gear in reverse, it stops at 3rd. So I'm assuming all the reverse gears work.
See the picture below, and look at the shift logic. If all gears but f3 are working, then your issue is electrical between the transmission controller and the shift lever.

Please verify that all gears but F3 are working. If this is correct, I will help you diagnose further.

821c trans logic.jpg
 

partsandservice

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
I think I found the issue with 13 c and 13m wires, it appears someone has installed the wrong master switch. I went and looked at a 621c my buddy has and those same two wires numbers are in that master switch, but they go to separate post on the master as it has four terminals not two like the one on mine.
 

partsandservice

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Messages
846
Location
Georgia
I ordered a four pole master switch will be here in the morning. That was the issue with fuel solenoid. 13 c and 13m should be broken by the small post on the master and connected when master is on. In the mean time instead of unplugging the weatherpack I took the two 13 , which were joined together with one terminal end, and taped the terminal end , now it starts and shuts off as it should. As for the shifting, in auto mode and selector on 2 it operates fine, shift to 3 it will kick out, and until it is restarted all four gear indicators light up and will remain in one gear only reguardless of the selector position. I think it is in a limp mode and it feels like second or maybe third gear.
 

GaryHoff

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Feb 25, 2009
Messages
810
Location
Alberta, Canada
Occupation
Heavey Equipment Mechanic
Good to see you found the fuel wiring issue.

Yes, that is a limp home mode. Does the same thing happen in reverse? I need to know exactly which gears work, and don't work. I think that this what is happening, can you please verify this:

1st gear forward is ok
2nd gear forward is ok,
3rd gear forward is NOT ok
4th gear forward is ok (you will have to be in 4th gear, shut off the machine, and then start in 4th gear)

1st gear reverse works,
2nd gear reverse works
3rd gear reverse works
**Reverse does not have a 4th gear**
 

partsandservice

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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
1st gear good
2nd gear good
3rd gear Not ok
4th gear Not ok, it will attempt to move

Rev 1 Ok
Rev 2 ok
Rev 3 Not ok

When in auto3 it will attempted shift to third and then it will drop back to second and try to shift to third and the shift indicator return to neutral the shift lever must then shifted to neutral , then it is limp mode 2nd only. So it seems it seems I am dealing with a Y4 pressure regulator or the K3 clutch. I am guessing either could cause the kick out. Open or short on the Y4 circuit to include the coil. No signal from shaft speed sensor( internal failure).
 

GaryHoff

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Messages
810
Location
Alberta, Canada
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Heavey Equipment Mechanic
If wiring to K3 was bad, then you should get a fault when you are in 4th gear. You said it moves in 4th gear, just slowly, and no faults. This suggests electrically to the transmission is ok.

I would recommend checking your shift lever first. If that checks out ok, then the likely fault is in K3 clutch, and it is slipping. Check the pressure in K3, and if its ok, then the clutch is likely worn out. You will likely have to engage K3 using 4th gear.
 
Last edited:

bartelbe

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Mar 15, 2016
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43
Location
minnesota
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Heavy Equipment Technician
Lets see if i can help. For forward gears the trans needs 2 solenoids powered, and same goes for reverse, so 1 st gear forward, forward clutch "KV"and K1 solenoids are activated 2nd gear would be KV and K2, 3rd KV + K3 reverse is simaliar but instead of forward clutch "KV'' Revere clutch is activated "KR"+ corresponding gear clutch solenoid , the only exmption is 4TH gear forward it uses K3 and K4 to achieve 4th gear forward. So 3rd is not ok but 1st & 2nd are says KV solenoid is ok, 3rd is not ok and 4th is "lacks lock up" now if Y4 was to blame then both forwrd 3rd and reverse 3rd and yes 4th would all have a issue, since you have already check the ohm of the solenoid and it was ok then isssue lys somewhere else. K3 clutch pack? possible but being a higher gear clutch pack i would be leary, how many hours on it? application? and honestly the biggest issue with the zf was cracking of the pick up tubes internaly and eletrical componets,wire,solenoids sensors , so unless you lost a clutch piston seal which would be the 1st i have seen in the 100's of zf i have been into, so what about control valve spool? very possible i have seen the spools stick and cause simialar issues,pulling the valve and cleaning most of the time takes care of this issue. and that leaves the output speed shaft sensor, which is where i would focus 1st, i have seen mutiple problem with these, at the connector the round bullet type pins tend to break off inside the connector itself so you will need to do a continuity check through the connector itself to insure the pins are ok , then theres the sensor itself pull her out check the pick up for debrie and more importantly the depth or clearance to the gear inside. if i remember theres a ohm spec for the speed sensors but cant remeber where i found it perhaps gary has it. hope this helps. also have you tried a clutch calibration? it will throw a fault code if it cant complete which it would detect clutch
pack slippage and throw the corresponding code .
 
Last edited:

partsandservice

Senior Member
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Feb 14, 2011
Messages
846
Location
Georgia
Thanks for the replies, I have been on the road and have not had much time on it. I just acquire this machine as is. The monitor display shows 2500 hours . I have no knowledge of past use, how ever judging for the bucket it was a hard 2500 assuming that is accurate, original monitor. This machine will be semi retired to a life of leisure and used as a forklift. Third and forth are not nesesary for its function , but since I could not stand it not working properly I will fix it. But will try to address outside potential issues first. K3 is the path I am on.
 
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