'68 Case 580CK Roosa Master Injector Pump failing

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

First time poster here, but I bought this TLB about 3 weeks ago and have been working on hydraulics lines and cylinder repacking among other things and these forums have been my go to. So thanks in advance!

When I bought it, it started right up. The guys said the engine was rebuilt a couple years ago and the pump was rebuild last year, and the pump looks newly painted. They also said they cleaned the tank.

It's always needed jumping to start, but always fired right up in 60+ deg weather. Last week, it dropped below 40 and it wouldn't start, I chalked it up the cold. I got a block heater and replaced the battery, but still wouldn't start. I had replaced both fuel filters but I had bled it to the pump inlet and ran it for a good 20 minutes after that with no problems at all. Yesterday, I checked the bleeder at the final filter and nothing came out...but I was getting fuel out of the lower filter bowl. Turns out the inlet line to the filters from the tank was clogged, but I could not figured out a good way to clear it. BTW, the tank is completely full. Basically I blew into the line, and of course now fuel gushes out. I refilled the filters, and bled the inlet line to the pump, but still would not start. Now today, batt fully charged, fuel still flowing to the pump, but it won't start...

So I took off (not just cracked) all the lines to the 4 injectors and NO FUEL when cranking. Throttle is at full, fuel stop (manual pull) is disengaged (fully in). I also took the return line off the pump to see if I get any fuel out of there, and NOTHING.

I don't mind pulling the injector pump off and cracking it on the bench, but I hear they are really complex, and more importantly, I'm concerned about messing up the timing and never getting it right again. Since it ran great last week when it was warmer, I also tried heating it with a heat gun on low for a while in case something was iced up (it's right around freezing this week), but no dice. I didn't know about the tank water collector/drain before it got cold, so it's possible that some water worked its way down to the pump.

Any other thoughts or things to try to narrow it down? I saw a recent post, and thepumpguy mentioned pulling the input line and filling to the brim with fluid and cranking the engine to see if it goes down. I haven't tried that yet, but I assume it won't go down since it'd have to be going somewhere and I see no fluid getting to the injector fittings.

Is there a way to see if it's turning if I broke a woodruff key or something on the input shaft (again, not sure why that would happen)? I can't seem to find a parts exploded view either if someone can point me to that.

Pump Is a Roosa Master, DBGFCC 431-27AJ. Date code? is 2100. Serial Number 1515086 MFG No is A-3577A

 

[Welder Dave]

Don't assume anything. The pumpguy wouldn't tell you to do a test if all you had to do was remove a line or 2. It sure sounds like a blockage considering it was running good. I wouldn't be taking the IP off. Hopefully the pumpguy comes along shortly. You won't find anyone who knows more about IP's and starting issues concerning them than him. Perhaps the stop lever is stuck or something else pretty simple is causing the problem.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Yes, u can try the fuel inlet “trick”..
What do u have to lose.??
Your probably just fighting fuel gelling.??
U can remove the top cover from the pump and make sure the metering valve is free..
If these words are foreign to u, Google is your friend..

 

[Delmer]

You know you weren't getting fuel out of the filters, that should explain not starting, and hopefully the pump is fine. Did you save the old filters? can you open them up and see how bad they were, like gunk and rust. Or, if you take the top cover off, you'll see the general cleanliness inside the pump. If everything is clean, then the pump is probably clean inside also.

You worked logically backwards to the problem, and then logically forward to the injection pump again. But the fuel to the injection pump with the lines removed was the last step, so it might take a bit of cranking to get fuel out. I'd flip the shut off back and forth rapidly a dozen times leaving it "ON", rap the injection pump a dozen times with a screwdriver handle, then crank it fifteen seconds, rest five minutes, crank it fifteen seconds. Keep the block heater plugged in and a battery charger on it. If you don't get fuel after ten cycles, time to consider the other options.

How fast does it crank? you don't have the replacement bolt on battery cable ends, do you?

 

[Dave Neubert]

you can take the timing cover off the side fo the punp 2 flat head screws and see if the ring is turning

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

Will try some of this tomorrow, thanks! I learned what a metering valve is through a great you tube vid this evening:

I can’t imagine I have gelling in the IP at 25deg. Especially since I can get fuel to pour out the input line. Is there a filter in the IP? I do have PS winterizer in the fuel.

I chucked the old fuel filters, the first one was nasty. But the final looked newer and the bowl looked clean. Washed it all out before re-assembling. Obviously, there’s still some descent size gunk in the tank if it clogged my line though…when I took the bottom filter bowl off yesterday, I could see some chocolate swirling again in the bottom.

I’ll crack the cover tomorrow and see what it looks like in there. The throttle and stop levers move freely. I tried the tapping on the case thing. I’ll check that the meter valve twists as it should when the fuel cutoff is engaged. Does anything make it move up and down in there too? I saw that’s it’s got a spring under it. I’ll pull the timing cover too (Secondly) and watch it turn. I assume it should be FULL of fuel, but I’m guessing it’s not since nothing comes out the return port.

the battery and cables to the starter and ground are brand new and clean. They are all crimp connections. Turns over nicely in my opinion but I have nothing to measure it to. No black smoke. Some whispy white. I’ll try to take a video or pics of what I find and figure out how to post them.
Till then, the charger is on duty tonight!

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

Alright, so continued a bit more engine cranking with the injector lines disconnected, and no fuel coming out before doing anything else. Went ahead and took the top cover off, and it was bone dry in the top. Looked fairly clean though, no obvious crud. Metering valve seems to work as advertised, and fuel cutoff and throttle also move internals as expected.

Moved onto the lower timing window, fuel poured out (so at least there was SOME fuel in there), looked clean as well. had someone hit the start button while I watched the window and it was spinning, so no broken shaft key. Went ahead and pulled out the inlet filter and it also looked serviceable, I went ahead and cleaned it in some fresh diesel and got a little bit out of it, but it wasn't restricting inlet flow.

So I went ahead and filled up the top of the IP with clean diesel (treated) and put it back together. Tried cranking quite a bit over 1/2 an hour or so and eventually got drips out of injector lines 1, 2 and 4 (1 being in the very front). but just drips, nothing substantial, and nothing from 3. I thought maybe it needed some back pressure or something. So I put the return line back on and continued to crank, no change. put the injector lines on, and continued to crank, no black smoke. No fuel still... Gave it a bit more cranks over the next hour to see if sitting in new diesel would unstick something, but nothing at all. BTW it's 45 degress here today, so much warmer. I'm doubting temp is a factor at all at this point.

Any next steps? I was thinking of pulling off the input end and looking at the vanes in the rotary pump, seeing if they are seized inward. Can I do that while it's on the TLB? and do I need to have the throttle in the full throttle position or anything special before I do that? I'm also willing to blast some air around if someone smart tells me that's a good idea to loosen things up. I'm pretty much out of ideas. I don't see any other fuel leaks that would indicate a problem in the input or output lines where it's sucking air, though I intentionally didn't clean the engine up so as not to upset anything before I got the hydraulics working and could drive it around and give the engine a workout.

My only other through was to pickup some Stanadyne Performance Formula and get that in there, and/or drain the pump and soak it in seafoam or marvels. Seems crazy that it was working perfectly last week and now, nothing.

One ancillary question on this TLB, the tank water catch/drain, how do you know when it's 'clean diesel'? I open it and let some water/fuel come out, but I'm at a loss as to how to know when is 'enough' and close it back up. I feel like I just drain a couple ounces of fuel all over the engine and there's no way to know if I'm actually doing any good, or stopping too early...

Here's some vids:

https://youtube.com/shorts/tf76Vf4wPTs?feature=share

 

[Delmer]

yes, you can take the intake vane pump housing off with the pump on the engine. When you drain water out of the tank, usually you'll get clear difference between the water and fuel. If you're not sure which is which, catch it in your hand, the water will bead up on an oily hand, or in a shallow lid of fuel. Or drain into a glass jar until you're adding fuel instead of water.

Did you fill the intake fitting with fuel and see if it goes down when cranking? I didn't see that anywhere.

 

[thepumpguysc]

It seems as tho u have a supply issue.. the pump SHOULD BE full of fuel..
I’m thinking the piston that’s under the right side plug on the end plate is stuck..
Loosen the plug while the end plate is still attached to the pump..
Just loosen it..
Next, take off the end plate from the pump..
Be careful, those screws are brittle.
As long as the end plate is off, check the blades..

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

I like the beading trick. I can’t smell fuel properly anymore, so the old sniff test doesn’t work for me when I crack the fuel tank water drain and run my fingers under it. It’s hard to reach too, I’ll have to get a little baby food jar or something. I’m supper confused why the shut off is on the opposite side of the TLB from the pump and injectors.

I forgot to the test to see if it’s sucking fuel after I cleaned the inlet filter and put it all together. I’ll do that tomorrow before I crack the plug (red)and remove the right inlet cap.

I’m assuming that when I remove the right inlet cap, I can reinstall the inlet hose and fuel should just run right through it, right? There’s a small slotted screw on the ‘backside’ too (blue). Can I or should I remove that? I’m unclear what the purpose of the 3 different internal channels are for (yellow, orange and purple). Anything I should look for specifically? It’ll probably make more sense to me when I get it in my hand but I’m trying to get prepared so I check as much as can before I need to pull the whole thing off.

Pics are here (not mine):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cQEgkBHEyKK4BGTw6

I really appreciate all your inputs! This forum is awesome. I’m pulling my hair out in frustration as I was expecting to be putting her hard at work this week in this great weather instead of poking at her.

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

I’m thinking the piston that’s under the right side plug on the end plate is stuck…

I just re-read this and my brain is turning…so there’s actually a piston in that end plate? What activates it since the input pressure is just gravity feed. Or is it essentially a float valve type thing where it shuts off input flow under certain pressure conditions (like increased pressure back into the purple port) ? Would it make any sense to take that bottom plug out completely and check/clean that piston (and spring) before possibly breaking housing screws? You know better than me for sure, just typing out loud…

 

[thepumpguysc]

Loosen the blue cap.. BEFORE U TAKE THE END PLATE OFF..
take it off after u get the e p off..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Don’t touch the red.. it’s just a plug for a fitting that’s on the test machine..

 

[thepumpguysc]

Once u get the end plate off..
Remove the slotted plug.(blue)
Under it (in order) pressure spring.
and piston..
Use a small screwdriver or scribe(pick) to push down on top of the piston..
Was it stuck.??
Under the piston is another spring but it’s “captured”.. it won’t come out without removing the sleeve.
U don’t need to remove the sleeve.
If u need to get the piston out.. slam the end plate down on a couple of rags and a flat surface..

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

Ok, fun day! started with trying to do the 'suck test' (see vid). I popped of the inlet line and loosened the 4 screws in the inlet cover first just to make sure I could crack the loose without breaking them. Suck test did NOT work, fluid seemed to pull in when the starter was nudged, but then came back up in the inlet port and was only down maybe an 1/8" at best in 2 seconds of cranking.

Open Injector Test Fail : https://youtube.com/shorts/5-a0xsqND_w?feature=share

Next I took off two of the injector lines at the pump so I could access the plug at the bottom. In my haste, I misunderstood and realized after that TPG had said to crack the slotted plug first, but I had the hex head bottom plug in my head. Anyway, removed the inlet cover and fuel flowed out. There was some white schmoo on the oring, but it was super soft, like something the guy used to hold orings in place (vaseline?). I saw that same white gunk on the bottom hex plug when I removed it. I reattached the fuel line and opened the petcock, and had full fuel flow through the end cap. So that wasn't the issue...

Noticed that the fuel inlet only allows flow to the top 'moon' port on the flat plate, (the small round (purple) hole was a blind hole). Then I pulled the slotted (blue) plug out, and the spring behind it. This also runs to the top 'moon' port. Way down at the bottom of the blue plug hole, I found the plunger, and when I pressed it, allows flow between the top and bottom 'moon' ports. I'm assuming this is just some sort of bypass if pressure builds on the input side, though I don't see how that'd be possible because it would flow with back to the tank instead of building enough pressure to open the flow between top and bottom 'moon' ports. I also noticed (see the vid) that the the spring under the slotted cap was nowhere long enough to take up the space in there and apply any pressure to the plunger way down at the bottom. It makes me think it's the wrong spring or there's an intermediate plunger missing....thoughts???

Inlet Cover :

I then turned the engine over briefly with the starter to see if the vanes worked as it. They moved and looked good. I then removed the eccentric ring and vanes. everything looked ok. The shaft felt tight, the eccentric ring and vanes were also very tightly toleranced.

Vanes: https://youtube.com/shorts/KTTbZKBdlJY?feature=share

I opened the timing inspection window to drain the pump and then put it all back together, leaving the input port off and the lines off at the injectors and filled it with diesel injector cleaner (not fuel). Turning the starter for about 4 seconds at full throttle, refilling and repeating. It now sucked down a bit at a time. I kept doing this till I got some drips at each of the injectors (not much at all though, especially from 3 and 4, farthest from the front). Then I removed the return line from the pump and filled that up with cleaner as well and kept going. (see vid).

Suck Test Pass:

Then I put it all together, reattached all the lines and was going to giver her a couple more cranks with the diesel fuel tank line connected to push some of the concentrated cleaned into the injectors to sit tonight and have you guys weigh in on next steps, and she started RIGHT UP and revved hard. I pulled the fuel shutoff and she turned off. Then I lowered the throttle to about 1/3, and cranked her again, and she started right up again.

So I stopped, scratched my head, and figured I'd let it sit tonight, and eat away whatever was causing the issue and think for a bit.

Apparently, either I'm running off some latent diesel in the injector lines, which now has enough pressure to chooch, or the cleaner is basically diesel and it magically fixed itself, and is just soaking right now. Either way, I plan to go out there in a few hours and run it for a couple minutes just to get everything moving around some more, and then it sit tonight. I'm not sure if I should drain it tomorrow of the cleaner and refill it with diesel and get to work, or just let it idle for 20 minutes till everything is cleared out. My gut tells me to leave it alone, thank God for his pre-Thanksgiving Day extra blessing, and just run it. Maybe it just needed to burb something out.

Any insights? I know these are some LONG posts, but I've gained alot of insight from others work and solutions on this machine, and I wanted to make sure I added to the content of this awesome community in any way I could! I'll definitely look for your final insight, and let you know what happens tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[thepumpguysc]

Seeing u haven’t followed ANY of my directions, I’m not going to comment.. other than, fuel SHOULD BE flowing out of your disconnected inlet line..

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

It wasn’t intentional TPG! Just the excitement of the moment and bad judgement getting the best of me. Your input here and across the forum is GREATLY valued! Thanks for all your help!

I ran her a bit ago for a few minutes. Started right up nice still. Going to pick up some Stanadyne additive and see how she works in the cold morning…

 

[Welder Dave]

I'd just run it like it is, maybe fill the tank full with clean new diesel. You've got too much additive already and who knows how different additives might react. It sounds like something was stuck and/or plugged. Leave well enough alone and see if it keeps running good before you really mess something up. It's not that cold.

 

[thepumpguysc]

To much additive will eat the aluminum housing from the inside out..

 

[Jay 68 Case 580CK]

Just to followup. Started up in about 20 seconds this morning with the manifold heater at about 32 degrees after marinating for about 15 hours in cleaner. Some white smoke before it started. But sounded good when she caught. Idled her for about 20 min. Then drove around a bit and exercised the hydraulics.

I’ll be more cautious with additive, thanks TPG. I think it’s all burned out now. So I’ll enjoy Thanksgiving Day and get to work tomorrow!