'67 580CK generator to alternator - advice on wiring in a charging light

[MarkS]

Greetings,
I bought an old 580CK (1967 vintage - originally with generator) last year. The person from whom I bought it had installed an alternator to replace the original generator, but had never hooked it up. Much of the wiring was missing and most of the gauges on the dash were missing. Plus when I checked it, the external regulator was not working. So, I opted to replace the alternator he had on it as well as the regulator with a re-manufactured Delco-Remy 10SI series alternator with an internal regulator. It is a 63 amp alternator. Because the wiring was so messed up (as well as much of it missing) I decided to re-wire the whole tractor. With regard to the alternator, I wanted to replace the ammeter with a voltmeter and install a charging light. I am essentially creating a whole new schematic and wiring scheme. however, I am not an expert by any means in designing alternator circuits. Here is my question. The field wire (pin 1 on the alternator connector) needs to run from the alternator to the "ON" side of the ignition switch as I understand it, and the charging light needs to be in series on that wire run. The thing is, I have seen schematics where there is just a light wired in series, and also circuits where there is a light and a resistor (wired in parallel to each other) between pin 1 on the alternator connector and the ignition switch. Does either approach work, or is the added resistance necessary for the light to work properly? Is the absence of both a light and a resistor in the wire run a problem for the operation of the alternator? What type of light should I use? I have seen LED type lights at the local auto parts store that will fit in the existing hole in the dash.
Next, the sense wire (pin 2 of the connector on the alternator) is then supposed to be run essentially to the positive side of the battery so that the alternator can sense the voltage drop on the system. My plan was to run that wire from pin 2 on the alternator to the battery terminal on the ignition switch. Is this an acceptable approach?
Finally the battery terminal on the alternator will get connected to the battery terminal on the start solenoid.
Does anyone see anything wrong with this approach? I have drawn up an electrical schematic which I could scan in and attach if it would help.

 

[hookedondiesel]

Here is my question. The field wire (pin 1 on the alternator connector) needs to run from the alternator to the "ON" side of the ignition switch as I understand it, and the charging light needs to be in series on that wire run. The thing is, I have seen schematics where there is just a light wired in series, and also circuits where there is a light and a resistor (wired in parallel to each other) between pin 1 on the alternator connector and the ignition switch. Does either approach work, or is the added resistance necessary for the light to work properly? Is the absence of both a light and a resistor in the wire run a problem for the operation of the alternator? What type of light should I use? I have seen LED type lights at the local auto parts store that will fit in the existing hole in the dash.
Next, the sense wire (pin 2 of the connector on the alternator) is then supposed to be run essentially to the positive side of the battery so that the alternator can sense the voltage drop on the system. My plan was to run that wire from pin 2 on the alternator to the battery terminal on the ignition switch. Is this an acceptable approach?
Finally the battery terminal on the alternator will get connected to the battery terminal on the start solenoid.
Does anyone see anything wrong with this approach? I have drawn up an electrical schematic which I could scan in and attach if it would help.

The resistor that runs parallel with the light is a "safety" feature, should the light burn out your alt will still be "energized" through it.
Its not necessary to have it. ( your call).
If you were to remove "both" of these from that circuit, your alt will NOT energize and NOT charge. You need at least one of these components.
"OR" if you remove "both" of these components, you would have to "manually" touch that wire from the alt to a power source to energize the alt, just a quick "tap" on a positive source will do it, you would have to do this every time your machine was started.
The "sense' wire (pin2) should go to the farthest point in your circuit,
to justify voltage drop, but having it on the ignition switch is also acceptable.
The battery terminal from the alt can go to the starter or battery itself, they say you should have a "mega fuse" in series with it, just in case, a fuse with a little higher rating than your alt puts out.

If you plan on having allot of lights etc on your machine and it has a heater etc,...I would consider a 3G alt upgrade.
Google "3G alt upgrade" to find out more. These can also be found at your local wreckers,"cheap" and well worth the effort.

 

[MarkS]

Thanks for your reply, it helps a lot.
The battery terminal wire goes from the alternator, up to the dash and back to the starter battery terminal because I at one time had an ammeter in the circuit and didn't want to re-string the wires when I decided to remove it. I do have a fuse in that line, but it is only a 30 amp. I will look at a bigger fuse. I can't recall if I have 8 or 10 gauge wire on that run. I will have to check otherwise the wire might end up the fuse .
AS to the 3G, I might stick to the one I have for now. the only thing I am running of an electrical nature once the thing is started is the dashboard gauges and perhaps headlights. No cab, no heater, no stereo etc. And if I'm using the lights I will also be using either the backhoe or loader and thus the RPMs will be up enough to keep from drawing down the battery. If I end up adding more lights, I might go down that route.

 

[Tinkerer]

If you want the 10si alternator to charge when the engine is idling and you don't want to speed up the engine to get it to start charging, install a low cut-in regulator like this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONE-1-WIRE-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item566e832c18&vxp=mtr
I would suggest that you wire in both the ammeter and red (idiot) light. I have done this conversion and it works very well, but only with the regulator I referred to.

 

[Delmer]

Tinkerer, I don't think he's talking about a one wire alternator, though that would be a good idea in this case. They seem to drain the battery randomly when unused for weeks, so use a battery disconnect.

Your battery wire should go straight to the battery, you can rob a fusible link and wire off a junk car rather than trying to find a big enough fuse/holder. They usually only blow when you hook up the jumper cables backwards.

 

[El Hombre]

OP, I like your idea about just a voltmeter and light. Ammeters need the full output of the alternator up to the gauge and then to the battery. That needs big wires and connectors. The light and volt meter you can do with 16 gauge wire. Fusible links are what is installed in the alt output to save the rest of the system. But a big circuit breaker would do as well.

 

[Tinkerer]

Delmer, you right. He wasn't talking about the one wire conversion. I just referred to that as an alternative. I have never experienced a low battery after my tractor sat for a long time. Any idea what causes that situation ?
Marks, If you do use an led light for an indicator, remember that are polarity sensitive and will not work if the polarity is wrong on them.

 

[ckinser1]

Another option for adding lights is to change them over to led as one 55watt haslogen bulb produces about 1100 lumens you can get twice that off of a 48 watt led even more if you have a 24 volt battery.

 

[MarkS]

OK, status report. I hooked things up as I described. I used am LED that I picked up at a local auto parts store. Of course there was nothing on the packaging that said what to power consumption of the light was. I wired a 100 ohm resistor in parallel with the light. As far as I can tell I have the polarity correct (there was a small plus sign on one of the terminals to which I attached the wire coming from pin 1 of the alternator).
When I turn of the key, the light does not come on. When I start the tractor, after a second or two the light does come on. Almost as though when the alternator starts producing power the light goes on instead of off.
I'm at a loss as to why it seems to be working backwards. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Delmer]

Does the alternator start producing power? Does your voltage build up over 13v?

 

[mitch504]

'Cause it is backwards. The key switch is the power source to excite the alternator, thus the positive needs to be towards the switch.

Y'all are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. I do this conversion on old equipment all the time. I use a standard plug for a 10si, because it snaps in and if you have to pull it off to change alternators, the next guy will know how you wired it. It has a small white wire for terminal 1, and a large red for 2.

The white 1 wire has to go to a switched source, on a cable stop diesel, like a 580CK, it doesn't really matter where. On a gas engine, or a electric stop diesel. it has to be isolated from the ignition switch "run" terminal, or have a diode in it, or the engine won't stop. If you want a charge light, put a bulb in series in this wire. (normally, a tiny current flows from the switch through the bulb to the alternator to excite it. once it starts charging, the bulb is connected to + on both ends, so it doesn't light. if the alternator stops, it becomes a ground and the bulb lights.) I honestly don't know if an LED will transmit the current needed to excite the alternator. I don't know why you'd use a LED except for the "cool factor".

My personal preference is to put an added normally open oil pressure switch in this circuit, so if someone forgets to turn off the key after pulling the stop cable, the alternator doesn't kill the battery.

The voltmeter "+" can go to any SWITCHED source, (or it'll kill the battery) and the voltmeter "-" goes to ground, (NOT IN SERIES, like an ammeter).

The large red (2)gets a ring terminal and drops down to the alternator output terminal. (Trust me, there is nothing on a CK that will care about unsensed fractional volt drops.)

The alternator output can go to the battery hot cable at either end, a fusible link is a good idea, though some OEMs don't use one here.

Good Luck,
Mitch

 

[Delmer]

The large red (2)gets a ring terminal and drops down to the alternator output terminal. (Trust me, there is nothing on a CK that will care about unsensed fractional volt drops.)

Exactly what I was thinking, but I don't do it often enough to remember.

 

[hookedondiesel]

I also don't know why you used an led,
And who told you to use a "100 ohm" resistor. ( it has to be larger than that "if used"),
it should be up in the 560 ohm range but in your case, leave it off.
If you want your battery to charge, remove the led and resistor and use a standard dash bulb. You can get fancy later.
Also, if you take an led and do a "reverse" polarity on it, it won't light,....
but a standard dash light will light both ways, like mitch stated, the standard bulb is in a positive flowing feed, an led will not allow flow both ways.
You pretty well have all the info you need here, google a little research if it gets to complicated, but it really isn't, unless you choose to make it so.
mitch is also correct, you can take pin 2 of the alt and hook it directly to the starter/battery feed of the alt, it will sense voltage from that point.
You may encounter a voltage drop of a volt or so.
Good Luck

 

[Tinkerer]

Maybe reading this post will help. Then again maybe not. I also thought the LED indicator light wasn't a good idea.
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...-580-ck-3-wire-gm-alt-question&highlight=10si

 

[MarkS]

Thanks Mitch and every one else. You're right, I don't know what I was thinking hooking the polarity of the light up as I did. The ONLY reason I was using an LED was because none of the local auto parts stores around here carry any incandescent dash lights and housings. Even most of the internet sources I looked at had only LEDs. If anyone has a source of incandescent dash lights let me know.

I also like the idea of the normally open oil pressure switch. How would you hook it up to the oil source. I currently have a mechanical oil pressure gauge which uses a small tube between the engine and the gauge. Could I "tee" into that same line?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[hookedondiesel]

You can buy auto "indicator" lights, red green blue etc, that come already pre-cased, look for toggle switches etc, you'll find them in that category.
Personally, I would keep the oil gauge you have now, there more accurate.

 

[Delmer]

Yes, I'd tee in at the engine. Probably a 1/8" NPT fitting. Might have the same threads on the gauge, or the gauge might just have a compression fitting with no pipe threads.