580K hydraulic problems... or over expectation?

[newdesertfox]

I'm trying to figure something out. I have a 580k that turned into a nightmare shortly after buying it, was sold as jobsite ready back in Sept and to date I've put 18 hours on it, 6 of which was today. About a week after I got it in a cylinder blew out, really frustrating story short every single cylinder in the entire backhoe has been replaced, along with 90% of the entire hose system (I've put 60 gallons of hydraulic fluid in it in 18 hours to give an idea of how many times stuff blew on it, found out blow that big supply hose off the pump and it drains the tank in seconds... killed the engine with 5 gallons to spare) I even opened up the breather screen and cleaned it out while I was teaching myself how to repair a backhoe with a heavy equipment mechanic friend trying to do everything I could to the system. Now heres my problem, it feels like I'm riding a horse with a broken heart working it. Everything works, and decently, but everything seems to be a struggle, the hydraulics bog down just trying to dig in wet clay with a 24" bucket, or unable lift a 8" tree, and whenever the system bogs down or a control reaches its maximum it makes a pretty loud noise from the from and rear valve "boxes" (cant remember the proper name) Kind of like a hissing pressure sound is the easiest way to say it (but no leaks), and when closing the bucket the hoses have a choppy vibration. I've put a few hundred hours on a JD310G and its backhoe had easily 2 maybe 3x the power, breakout force, and lifting ability. Im wondering what people may think of the situation, the engine runs very well and smoothly and no smoke. This machine was NOT taken care of by the prior owner as I've been finding out, I bought someone elses mess they created by being an idiot with it, air filter alone was over 20 years old. Im wondering if it may have failing relief valves or something stupid like that. I've never run a 580k before this one but I've seen other people run them and they seem to have no issues with basic power to the backhoe lifting or moving things or breakout force. When closing the bucket it seems to be somewhat slow, and the choppy hoses happen along with what I would consider poor breakout force at best. The boom cylinder is terrible at lifting things, like it has no pressure if anything other then just the machine, but it can push down fine and lift the backhoe, but downward motions are a nightmare to get smoothly, theres about a 1000th of a mm between it just slamming down and it going down smoothly (and no its not a 3 stick thanks guys lol ) I can run that how BH smoothly except the boom, its like a slam smash show running that unless I'm extremely deliberate with my control of it. Hope thats enough detail to paint the picture, I can answer any questions needed or try at least lol but let me know what you might think of it. Thanks

 

[Vetech63]

Its been awhile since Ive seen a 580K but here goes. When your hydraulics bog down, does the engine bog down with them? Does the hydraulics bog down in all functions, including the front bucket? The hissing sound is one of 2 things.......oil going over a relief valve, or a oil bypass in the system. What concerns me is the fact that it has been run low, or out of oil.......and probably had done that before you got it. I know the main pump cant starve for long without damage from overheating. at this point it sounds like either a faulty pump or your engines inability to carry the hydraulic load. Since you don't know any previous history on the machine before you bought it.......it could be a number of things, and maybe even a few issues combined. A pump flow test would do wonders in eliminating a lot of hydraulic questions. I don't know the engine stall specs but someone here will.............try doing a hydraulic, torque, and full stall test a see where you are at.

 

[Willie B]

I'm at a loss to say what is wrong. I do have a 580K, my second. They both have plenty of lift except for the boom. The geometry of the boom means I have to either latch the boom in transport position, or move the tractor farther away for very heavy lifts. If boom is too near vertical, there is a bypass through the piston on the boom cylinder that lets oil through.

Last summer I placed marble blocks weighing 5600 LBS building a local veteran's memorial.

A good hydraulic mechanic is needed.

 

[Tinkerer]

A cylinder blew out and you replaced all of them on the backhoe ??? Can you explain what exactly happened.
90% of the hoses blew out. Sounds like a badly adjusted or damaged relief valve in the hydraulic system.
I would think you have a hydraulic pump problem also. Flow and pressure tests are the ONLY way you will get to the cause of what is going on.
Willie mentioned the relief valve in the boom piston. I would be replacing it just to eliminate a chance it is part of the gutless power in the boom lift capability.
I am posting a photo of the valve so you can see how it could be a problem.

 

[newdesertfox]

Its been awhile since Ive seen a 580K but here goes. When your hydraulics bog down, does the engine bog down with them? Does the hydraulics bog down in all functions, including the front bucket? The hissing sound is one of 2 things.......oil going over a relief valve, or a oil bypass in the system. What concerns me is the fact that it has been run low, or out of oil.......and probably had done that before you got it. I know the main pump cant starve for long without damage from overheating. at this point it sounds like either a faulty pump or your engines inability to carry the hydraulic load. Since you don't know any previous history on the machine before you bought it.......it could be a number of things, and maybe even a few issues combined. A pump flow test would do wonders in eliminating a lot of hydraulic questions. I don't know the engine stall specs but someone here will.............try doing a hydraulic, torque, and full stall test a see where you are at.

The engine bogs down on certain things, like to lower the stabilizers without bogging I need around 55-65% power, similar with the boom and extenda, but the FEL and dipper I never have noticed an issue with bogging down the engine. Ah okay I must just be spoiled on the much newer 310 cause I never heard anything other then a lighter noise when fully extended vs this things sounds like its gonna pop level of volume. When I ran low, I blew the main supply hose off of the pump, which caused me to imminently lose control response on the backhoe and I insta killed the engine to figure out the issue, thing leaked a good additional 5ish gallons after the engine was shutoff so the pump never went dry thankfully but who knows on that. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a few issues combined, its been very frustrating. How would I go about doing a pump flow, torque and such tests? I've heard of them but largely unfamiliar

 

[newdesertfox]

A cylinder blew out and you replaced all of them on the backhoe ??? Can you explain what exactly happened.
90% of the hoses blew out. Sounds like a badly adjusted or damaged relief valve in the hydraulic system.
I would think you have a hydraulic pump problem also. Flow and pressure tests are the ONLY way you will get to the cause of what is going on.
Willie mentioned the relief valve in the boom piston. I would be replacing it just to eliminate a chance it is part of the gutless power in the boom lift capability.
I am posting a photo of the valve so you can see how it could be a problem. View attachment 178973

Thanks for that picture, I'd have been totally lost as to what I was trying to imagine without lol, to go into more detail. I bought the machine to do some forestry and move logs and lumber for my sawmill, the 2nd day I had it here I was pulling logs out of a pile with one of the swing cyl's blew out shooting fluid everywhere and another cylinder went as well. So I towed it to a shop to have it repaired and determined that several cylinders probably were near the end of their life based on the completely missing dust seals. Also had some other basic work done on it to fix the battery draining and such, 4 months later I saw the machine again and I was very frustrated about how long the whole thing took. So I drove it to a jobsite and worked it for 4 hours after being in a shop for 4 months and a main 1 inch supply hose blew in half up underneath the engine along with another hose. I tore the machine apart in the field and did the best repair I could but I couldn't put the CW back on and some other stuff out on a field in a foot of mud so once repaired I drove it back to the person's barn to put it back together. As soon as I parked it another hose went and another cylinder blew out lifting the FEL to work under the hood. I knew the hydraulics weren't what I expected and I was ticked off the say the least about only getting 4 hours on it lol. So I talked with the property owner and determined to try and fix the problem once and for all, so every cylinder that was left was repaired as they all had dust seals that were either missing, or about 50% rotted away. while I was at it I also started replacing every hose on the machine as all the hoses were super cracked, frayed, worn down to steel and just abused. So I replaced those as well and sleeved/spiral protected all the hoses. I had hoped replacing almost the entire hydraulic system would fix the issue as it sure wasn't cheap... It sounds like I should def conduct a flow and pressure test to try and further refine the symptoms and narrow down on the cause. Any suggestions or links on how to do those tests?

 

[Willie B]

This particular Case is very different than JD in it's hydraulic plumbing. JD uses a variable volume pump. It moves only enough oil to maintain pressure, which is constant. High pressure oil is available at all times to any valve.

Case 580K is open center system. Pump flows a constant volume, until you move a valve, then flow is diverted into a cylinder. There are numerous problems you might have, a good hydraulic mechanic will get to the fix quicker than you can.

Working properly, with warm oil this machine should do all functions at idle, they will of course, be slow.

 

[Billrog]

Don't have any solutions for you but if the boom doesn't come down smoothly your probably missing a restrictor ( washer with a small hole) in the end of the hose that attaches to the cylinder to cushion the flow when lowering the boom.

 

[Tinkerer]

I have the service manual for your machine with all you need to know about the flow tests and pressure tests, but you need to get someone with experience to come and look at it. You will be time and money ahead by doing that.
Your ordeal with the seals and hoses leaking is very common with older machines.
When you stated cylinders were blowing I was baffled as to how an actual cylinder barrel would burst

 

[newdesertfox]

Oh lol sorry about the confusion, yeah that would be terrifying if that happened. Every time one went it was a fountain. I'm guessing taking it to a dealer is not worth it?

 

[Tinkerer]

It may be your best option. If you go that route talk to the service manager first and describe your problems. See what he thinks needs to be done and the cost. Can you transport the machine yourself to take it anywhere to get repaired ?

 

[Willie B]

Don't have any solutions for you but if the boom doesn't come down smoothly your probably missing a restrictor ( washer with a small hole) in the end of the hose that attaches to the cylinder to cushion the flow when lowering the boom.

That is a thought. Mine, I thought was working as designed is smooth if I only operate one cylinder at a time. If I operate more than one as I always did with my older John Deere, it becomes very jumpy, or unpredictable. When lowering the boom it is critical that I only lower the boom, no other functions. Swinging is another one at a time function. Swing, along with other functions is slow, finish the other motions, it jerks, and wipes out the truck!

 

[newdesertfox]

I think that one of the issues with lifting is a relief valve in the boom cylinder after playing with it, the boom can't even lift itself up if the boom is level with the ground and the extenda is out, but if its partially up it has no issue, but the last 20% of travel, as soon as I let go of the control it will sink to about 20% of the way and then stop. I know the main valves are good because when I rebuilt the extenda it held its open and up position for 2-3 weeks and never sunk but I think that internal valve may be causing issues. I played with the machine somemore and found out it can not lift itself properly off the ground with teh FEL, I can only go up about 2-4 inches before it can't lift itself any more, and I also found out I can't drive and operate a cylinder well at the same time, I was driving in 2nd gear and decided to lift a stabilizer up some more while driving, instant bog down on the engine and my speed dropped by over 75% and the instant I stopped lifting the stab I regained my speed

 

[Delmer]

Do you get any smoke from the exhaust when the engine bogs? Have you gone through the fuel system? filters, rubber hoses, questionable fittings, screens?

 

[newdesertfox]

I've never noticed smoke other then a little on start up but then again I wasn't looking for it so I can check tomorrow. I haven't done anything with the fuel system other then to run engine/injector cleaner through the diesel and I'm thinking if the air filter was 20 years old the 3 fuel filters probably aren't going to be better, found out today I missed repacking the steering cylinders, those went along with a tirod... I seriously bought a nightmare have to say

 

[newdesertfox]

This is the most it can lift itself up, plenty of crome still showing

 

[newdesertfox]

And this small tree I could barely get up, took some time and effort

 

[Willie B]

The sagging at the top is the geometry of the over center parking the 580K uses. The other symptoms are indicating a problem in hydraulics. I had mine rebuilt professionally, it still sagged. You can latch the boom for heavy lifts, or move the tractor farther away, so the boom doesn't have to be so steep. I'd bet you got enough crap in your tank that cleaning the pick up screen only helps briefly. If the pump is starved for oil it'll howl, and cavitate. The oil will foam.

 

[newdesertfox]

I don't think that's the issue, I flushed the tank 2x and when I cleaned the pre screen it barely had anything in it at all. I was actually surprised as I thought it would be jam packed

 

[newdesertfox]

No smoke when bogging down, even with 100% power not an ounce of smoke