544J start problem

[mpolk]

All,

We have a 544J loader and have a problem with it on initial start

Fuel is good
Fuel lines are clean and good
The feed pump (not sure what its called but provides fuel to the main pump) is good
It is not sucking air
The main fuel pump has just been replaced
The engine compression is good
In warm weather
On initial start it turns over plenty fast but will not start
With just a touch of ether it will start and run fine
Even if you work it for a while, if you kill it and wait 30 seconds it will not start
There is not diesel in the oil

I do not know the details of the system well enough to know what might cause this....is there a cam sensor or crank sensor that could cause this? it just acts like the injectors are not pulsing or something like that....but why only until it starts...it is turning 250 it is not turning over too slow.

I appreciate any help you can give me.

mpolk

 

[Delmer]

I don't know much about this or any common rail system, but the diagnostics involve measuring the leakage from various components and going from there. Something is leaking too much fuel to build the needed pressure to start, or a sensor is not letting the pump build pressure.

Why was the main pump replaced and who did that? Any codes?

 

[mpolk]

Well obviously I do not know as I am seeking help, but I don't believe it is a leakage problem. It acts like the computer is not pulsing the injectors until it actually starts. I just don't know the details of the system. I had a pick up that would start and run for a second and then die and found a relay turned the fuel pump on for a few seconds and then there was an oil pressure switch that had to show pressure for the pump to run. So I understand there could be a sensor problem but the only code set was a brake lite low voltage (I will find out exactly what code it had on it and if it resets it)

 

[ps66x4]

What is a 544j? A John Deere? Is this anything like a Ford Power stroke?I'm no expert on them but I think they start out on electricity to function the injectors until the HPOP builds up pressure to take over. Maybe that is the same?

 

[AndrewC]

Depending on serial number it could be common rail or rotary fuel pump. Do you know if it is a tier 2 or 3 engine? PM me the serial. We need to know which engine is in it first before we can start diagnostics as the procedures are different between each.
The common rail system does not use oil pressure to actuate the injectors and either fuel system doesn't have an electric fuel pump.

 

[Delmer]

Good thing a real mechanic showed up, it was starting to sound like amateur car talk here. My experience with common rail is exactly one engine, but it did the exact same thing, and could well be the same Bosch system, Deere doesn't make fuel systems do they? The leakage is internal, more like return flow.

Assuming of course that this isn't a rotary pump, cause then we're really gonna be lost...

 

[Super S]

Make sure both batteries are good. We had the exact symptoms and paid around 300 for the Deere mechanic to come and tell us it was a bad battery. Come to think of it he saw it when he checked the codes on the screen. Ours spun over fast enough to make you not believe that it could have low voltage. It has to have 24 volts for the computer to fire the injectors and the little shot of ether would be just enough for the alternator to start charging and fire the injectors. Hope that is your problem as it will be the cheapest fix.

 

[AndrewC]

There are two types, tier 2 rotary with pencil injectors, I believe made by bosch and the common rail ie tier 3, the pump feeds fuel at high pressure to a rail which is common to all injectors and the ecu opens and closes the injectors. I believe that is made by Delphi to deeres own specs. Serial number can tell what engine is in it.
To me and Im assuming its HPCR it sounds like worn out injectors or the fuel is draining back to the tank. The leakage is internal and is measured through the return line and measured at idle over a given period. I would like to know why the pump was changed because they rarely fail before injectors.
It could also be a fuel delivery valve on the rail. They stick open and dump too much fuel through the rail and cause a no start also.
Before anything can be said for sure we need to know what engine is actually in it.

 

[mpolk]

AndrewC I can already tell you will be able to help me. I am new to site and don't know how to PM but surely it cant hurt to post a portion of the last six on the serial number so you can help
6173*^ if you need the last two numbers let me know. I want to diagnose the problem and I appreciate your help.

 

[cutting edge]

There are two types, tier 2 rotary with pencil injectors, I believe made by bosch and the common rail ie tier 3, the pump feeds fuel at high pressure to a rail which is common to all injectors and the ecu opens and closes the injectors. I believe that is made by Delphi to deeres own specs. Serial number can tell what engine is in it.
To me and Im assuming its HPCR it sounds like worn out injectors or the fuel is draining back to the tank. The leakage is internal and is measured through the return line and measured at idle over a given period. I would like to know why the pump was changed because they rarely fail before injectors.
It could also be a fuel delivery valve on the rail. They stick open and dump too much fuel through the rail and cause a no start also.
Before anything can be said for sure we need to know what engine is actually in it.

If it starts with a sniff of ether, My money is on a failed rail pressure sensor. Ive seen them get stuck showing pressure with the engine shut off...the SCV doesnt kick in because it thinks it already has pressure at the rail.

Once the engine is running (on ether) desired rail pressure climbs higher than actual(false) rail pressure and begins commanding more fuel.

 

[heymccall]

Regardless of the engine, my number one Deere fuel prime issue is when the o-ring on top of the separator bowl is omitted when the filters are serviced. I like having the bowl, but the filter can be used without the bowl, by simply putting the bowl drain plug in the base of the filter.
Which engine, common rail or rotary pumped?

And yes, they will not leak externally when the bowl oring is missing, yet, will lose their prime. Been there, done that. Usually, you can hand prime and eliminate the start issue if it's a missing oring.

 

[AndrewC]

Its common rail you can use jds online parts catalog to see the serial break, if the machine runs after its started on ether I would think you would notice low power if it wasn't getting enough fuel or was sucking air but I would change the rail pressure sensor as the code you mentioned was rail mismatch so a bit of insurance would be to replace it then also replace the rail relief along with it as if the pressure has spiked its going to start leaking out there also. Start with that then see. Do not start the engine with the rail sensor disconnected or you will have issues. How many hours on the loader and do you know why the pump was changed and was it replaced and not rebuilt?

 

[mpolk]

Some new information - The unit has two fuel filters and since I am not sure what they are each called, I am going to refer to them in order as the fuel flows from the tank. When the loader wont start the first filter (closest to fuel tank in the flow) is bone dry. I thought that might help with diagnosis. I will post a separate message detailing the history and what has been done so far.

 

[mpolk]

the history leading up to where we are is the loader got to missing a little and they were finding a good bit of trash in fuel system ....the miss got worse and then the no start w/o a splash of ether started and then it would not start at all. The field mech said he blew back through the fuel line and it would then run but not start w/o touch of ether. They believed the tank had trash build up in it so it was took to shop and the tank was removed and cleaned out and the fuel line from the tank was replaced. They wanted to do that before trying to fix miss as they thought that was an injector and the fuel system needed to be clean first. That was done and it still had star problem. At that point they just went to replacing parts rather that determining the problem. Both fuel pumps, the sensor and solenoid were all replaced. Still has start problem...has power, still has a little miss which will prob be injector. And as stated before if you use ether to start it and run it for an hour and kill it, it will not restart on its own and the first fuel filter will be dry. Fuel lines are not restricted.

 

[heymccall]

Which goes right back to my upper post the first fuel filter is sucking air at it's water bowl.
Poor to no start overnight, missing when running, and an empty first filter. If you're not using the water bowl, then the screw on head for the filter head has a bad seal. They sell the seal.

 

[Delmer]

Fix the simple things first, they tried, but if the filter is empty they still have some figuring to do before even looking at the injection system.

 

[AndrewC]

The common rail can suck the filters dry if it dumps it all through the rail relief or through the injectors but I would try and eliminate the low side if the filter is getting sucked dry, one way to elimintate the filters is to put a jumper between the hoses if you can. I cannot recall if it is 6 ors or the compression fitting on the the j series but that is one way, the other thing that I have seen lots of is the stand pipe in the tank gets plugged up with debris pull that out first and check it. It is held by a hose clamp then its threaded into the tank. I was assuming you had confirmed the low side but you need to be sure before you go any further.
The oring that has been discussed is on the clear bowl of the primary filter, the correct one is fatter than the one that comes with the filter but the one that comes with the filter will work.
When they did all the work did they change the rail relief? It is a small valve threaded into the top of the high pressure rail with a small tube going to a tee fitting, the nuts for the line are a 9/16 wrench size. If its been changed it will not be yellow.

 

[mpolk]

The stand pipe is clean, they pulled tank, cleaned stand pipe and replaced fuel line. Have not been using the clear bowl. It has a little miss but power is good. Shut it off, go to restart, wont start w/o a touch of ether.......if prior to giving it the ether to start, the back filter is dry.

heymccall posted "Which goes right back to my upper post the first fuel filter is sucking air at it's water bowl.
Poor to no start overnight, missing when running, and an empty first filter. If you're not using the water bowl, then the screw on head for the filter head has a bad seal. They sell the seal."

I am going to try the screw on filter head seal tomorrow and see if it could be sucking air there. I will have to verify if the rail relief was changed. thanks guys

 

[mpolk]

Ok here is the latest, we replaces the complete filter housing and it will now restart if you restart right away, it would not do that before, but if you wait 5 minutes it will not. There is still a vacuum on the back filter if you go to take filter off you hear it right after you kill it.
I have a couple other observations. Before this loader started messing up ever since it was new when you would kill it, it would continue to run for just a second or two. Ever since it started messing up when you turn the key off it dies immediately. And in the fuse box fuse F33 Pressurizer motor has a 10a fuse in it but there is no power to that fuse, key on, key off or when starting.

The common rail must be sucking the filters dry, what else could do that?

Also AndrewC said before that to not start it with the pressure sensor unplugged. When I asked if they had replaced it they said that they had and they knew it was working because if they unplugged it while it was running you could tell big difference. With that being said, I do not believe that is what is causing the draining of the filters and no start because it was doing that and still is before the sensor was replaced or unplugged.

Now what guys?

 

[AndrewC]

If you disconnect the rail sensor it puts the pump to max displacement and will open the rail relief, as soon as that opens then its done, its a one time use. All that fuel is going straight to the return. The injection pump can certainly pull it into a vacuum, Ive watched a rail relief dump so much fuel it pulls the pressure down to -21psi. Normal engine runs at 4 psi.
I would still pull the stand pipe out and check it, it only takes a few minutes.
I wouldn't worry too much about f33, does it power up when its running?