1984 JCB 3C1400 Shuttle Shift/Reverser service question.

[LowBoy]

Trying to straighten out some of the previous owner's shortcuts, it dawned on me what he was doing when I arrived to look at/buy this machine.

He was dumping hydraulic oil into a funnel when I arrived; assuming it was older and had a few leaks, I let it slide. Later on after telling me he had the reverser out and rebuilt by a transmission shop about 200-300 hours ago, even handed me a service manual breakdown of the inside of it...he openly admitted he "always used regular hydraulic oil" in the reverser. Uh oh...

Yesterday I was using the machine, and noticed a slight hesitation when on an incline in forward. I baby this machine like a fragile woman; always stop when changing directions, no slamming. I haven't checked level in reverser yet, but will now that I'm thinking I want to get the "regular hydraulic oil" out of it, and replace with Hy-Tran or something comparable. I want to get things right to get ready for winter around here.

Question: What fluid actually belongs in this reverser/shuttle shifter, and what's the capacity? I might get flack for this, but I'm a Lucas Products believer too. Is it prudent to change the fluid to the properly specified fluid, and add some Lucas for sake of longevity, or most of you guys dead against additives in these reversers? Just curious as to what most of you think about that issue. I know enough about automatic transmission components and the presence of "friction material" that the clutches like, that I wonder if these reversers would be similar.

Where can I get a used service manual for this old machine...any advice for that as well? Thank you in advance.

 

[GregD1]

That reverser unit is the same Case used years ago. They had a nasty habit of breaking the bellville washer springs inside them. Yes it is or was caused by not coming to a full stop when reversing direction and there is no modulation in the unit to cushion or help prevent it. Sorry I can`t remember what oil they used. Good luck, they are pretty simple inside though.

 

[Extractorfan]

Hi Lowboy, I seem to think we used Dexron ATF -( automatic transmission fluid) and I think Dana Spicer made the shuttle, I will look to see if we still have any information on that particular transmission. One thing to check is to drain down the oil through plug 9 on your drawing, then remove the sump, looks like 8 on your drawing, and check the gauze strainer, item 5, look for any signs of metal debris on the bottom of the sump and on the strainer(the strainer will pull down out of the shuttle cause its only held in place by an "O" ring, item 4) The sump uses liquid gasket compound to seal it. Depending how long between services there is usually a very small amount of metal debris in the sump/strainer. Hope this is helpful - Good Luck.
Ex tractor fan

 

[LowBoy]

Several people I've talked to said the same thing...if you don't stop before changing directions, you'll be sorry.

Extractorfan; Dextron ATF sounds right to me, because years ago a friend let me borrow his JCB 214 machine for an entire winter to move my snow, and I recall the fluid being red. I hope this guy I bought this thing from didn't spank this reverser using hydraulic oil, that would be a son of a gun.

I tried to download a service manual I found online yesterday, but it was too big of a file and I had to abort the mission. All I wanted was page 12 for service info, not all 512 pages, lol.

Hahaha, it's amazing to think of how many of these machines I've witnessed on jobsites being tormented by some yahoo throwing that shuttle lever back and forth while working it...

 

[LowBoy]

So is is a definite that I need to use ATF in this reverser, or can I switch to Hy-Tran from Tractor Supply without causing any problems with slippage, etc...? Hy-Tran is on sale at the moment in 5 gal. pails is why I'm asking...

Anybody care to comment?

 

[mitch504]

Umm, your tractor supply doesn't actually carry "Hy-Tran" do they?

That is a Case formulation with additives for wet brakes and clutches, that also has great water absorption properties. As has been discussed in several threads on here, there doesn't seem to be an aftermarket oil that meets all it's specs.

I got excited when I saw that, thought maybe they started carrying it. I thought bad as I hated going to tractor supply, it would beat 60 miles to the Case place, but, there website didn't list it. If your tractor supply carries it, it is an excellent oil.

If your store carries it and mine doesn't, I'm one step closer to burning this one out.
Mitch

 

[d4c24a]

i ran hytrans in a newer 3cx (2006) with no problems
will see if i can sort page 12 out for you

 

[LowBoy]

I was referring to anything comparable to Hy Tran, other than straight Dextron ATF to be specific. I'm not sure if it's using fluid yet, or the previous owner just didn't fill it to the high mark on the stick, because I checked it yesterday and it was definitely low. I don't see any leaks under it, so I'm assuming it was left low. In the event it is and doesn't leak...I may as well drain it completely and re-fill with something that belongs inside that box.

I'm not in the repair field directly, so I kind of depend on the "pro's" advice on certain things such as proper oils, spec's, etc. so I don't make any mistakes, especially on my own equipment.

What I'm really asking I guess, is if there's a standard or generic reverser oil other than Dextron ATF I can buy in 5 gal. pails that won't break the bank, and still provide the same lubrication...? If not, so be it, but I'm just trying to find the answer before it gets too cold to deal with.

I do remember ATF being in a newer 214B I used one winter several years ago...that was an auction machine, the shuttle was slipping, and it leaked red on the ground all the time. It went right back to the auction after that winter was over.

Thanks for the help too, d4c. I haven't looked back in these threads for this info, so I may be asking a repetative question, sorry.

 

[d4c24a]

lets see if this works
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w047qqvs16htozy/jcb fluids.pdf

 

[LowBoy]

lets see if this works
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w047qqvs16htozy/jcb fluids.pdf

HAHA! Got it. It's from the same manual I found online d4, except for some reason I couldn't isolate a certain page when I tried to print one out, like I just did with your post here. I just printed it, THANKS!
Now onto the next question; decifering what alternatives to "JCB SPECIAL TRANSMISSION FLUID" I can safely use. I can't bring myself to have to drive 100 miles to the nearest JCB dealer to spend 2x what it sells for even at a petroleum products distributorship. This "special fluid" they recommend is the same as brand X, Y or Z, only packaged in a JCB "special fluid" yellow pail.

I'll try to break down the spec's on the special fluid they recommend, and see if I can find something comparable, close to, or matching it in terms of composition that I can buy closer to home. Has to be a standard product that we see used in other things daily, just have to find out what's available.

Thanks again d4, I put that page into my JCB folder...:notworthy

(PS: And then a few minutes later...I found this below on Yesterday's Tractors.com...) Looks like Dexron ATF is the norm in these shuttle shift boxes according to this forum discussion below...
I have the identical same issue with mine as the fella below too. Fluid at LOW mark, slight hesitation in shuttle engagement from forward to reverse. What happened to his overnight, why, and what is the actual cause, can it be corrected with minimal effort?





Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum


Topic: JCB 3CX Shtttle Box Oil[Return to Forum]
Author
bigrob
04-11-2006 12:49:31
212.159.88.53


Well, I've finally found an operator's manual for my 1982 3CX (thanks to The Digger Doctor- what a guy!)
However, I'm wanting to top up/change the oil in the shuttle box, and here begins the confusion-

The original operator's manual says to use Mobil Delvac 1310 (basically 10W monograde engine oil)

The man at JCB technical support said to use Gear Oil 90 (API-GL-5)

The operators manual for a 1994-ish 3CX says to use JCB Special Transmission Fluid (and under no circumstances Dexron ATX)

Anybody any idea what oil I should actually use?
I've read the past posts on here where folk say to use Dexron ATF, I'm just a bit put off by the dire wanrings against it by JCB!



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jrv1956
04-18-2006 06:49:34
12.216.120.234



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Re: JCB 3CX Shtttle Box Oil in reply to bigrob, 04-11-2006 12:49:31

First of all, what are you calling the shuttle box? It sounds to me that you are confused about which oil goes where? The borg-warner shuttle, (the first box behind the torque converter housing) is filled through the top and checked with the dipstick. It is filled with Dextron ATF. JCB does say not to use Dextron due to some of the seal problems that they have had with the convertor and front pump. Dextron will work just fine. In the transmission box, the second housing past the converter, is 90 wt gear lube. This is just a simple gear transmission and is seperated from the shuttle. If you have the newer transmission, the synchro-shuttle where all you have is one large case, you HAVE to use the JCB oil. Dextron will not seal properly and you will have internal leaks on the clutch packs. You first have to know which you have, the borg-warner with the gearbox or the JCB synchro shuttle. Then you can proceed. The tech's at JCB are just ignorant. Most of them read from a book and have never even seen a backhoe. I should know, I was a service manager at a JCB dealership for many years. BigJ


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Aae
09-24-2006 04:05:04
168.209.97.34



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Re: 1997 JCB 3CX transmission problems in reply to jrv1956, 04-18-2006 06:49:34

This machine was working fine, parked off for the night, checked oil in the morning found oil to on min mark on dipstick. Oil was topped and machine sent to site. Worked for an hour and the operator noticed a delayed response when the forward/reverse shift was selected. We drained all oil from gearbox, renewed filter and checked the strainer and filled the recommended oil to the max mark. The delayed action persists.
Response time is about 5 seconds. Can somebody please help.


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bigrob
04-19-2006 10:45:04
212.159.88.53



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Re: JCB 3CX Shtttle Box Oil in reply to jrv1956, 04-18-2006 06:49:34

I've got the BW shuttle box & seperate gearbox. What caused the confusion was the original JCB Operator's Manual I have which states-
10w engine oil (mobil Delvac 1310, the same as the engine in cold climates) as the stuff to use in the shuttle box.
20W/20 engine oil as the stuff to use in the 4 spd synchro box.
In the end, I've got a 25l drum of JCB shuttle transmission 10w oil, as it's no more expensive that ATF anyway!


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ajk
04-11-2006 13:21:28
195.93.21.130



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Re: JCB 3CX Shtttle Box Oil in reply to bigrob, 04-11-2006 12:49:31

Don"t get confused between the transmission oil and the shuttle box fluid,red ATF for the Borg Warner shuttle box for your 3CX,buy your oils at a JCB dealer they are very good on price and their oils are top quality and you will get the right one.
AJ





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[Extractorfan]

The transmission you have in your machine (if it looks like your the drawing in your first post), is NOT the JCB Syncro shuttle, I have a shop manual for those machines and it says to use the JCB transmission oil NOT friction modified oils IE Dexron ATF. The way to check the oil level is to pull out the long transmission dip stick, clean it, run the engine for a few minutes, stop the engine, then dip it within 20 seconds of engine being stopped it should then read within the hatched area on the dip stick. If not add more oil down the dipstick tube until it is on the mark.

I was referring to anything comparable to Hy Tran, other than straight Dextron ATF to be specific. I'm not sure if it's using fluid yet, or the previous owner just didn't fill it to the high mark on the stick, because I checked it yesterday and it was definitely low. I don't see any leaks under it, so I'm assuming it was left low. In the event it is and doesn't leak...I may as well drain it completely and re-fill with something that belongs inside that box.

I'm not in the repair field directly, so I kind of depend on the "pro's" advice on certain things such as proper oils, spec's, etc. so I don't make any mistakes, especially on my own equipment.

What I'm really asking I guess, is if there's a standard or generic reverser oil other than Dextron ATF I can buy in 5 gal. pails that won't break the bank, and still provide the same lubrication...? If not, so be it, but I'm just trying to find the answer before it gets too cold to deal with.

I do remember ATF being in a newer 214B I used one winter several years ago...that was an auction machine, the shuttle was slipping, and it leaked red on the ground all the time. It went right back to the auction after that winter was over.

Thanks for the help too, d4c. I haven't looked back in these threads for this info, so I may be asking a repetative question, sorry.

 

[mitch504]

One thing to keep in mind when considering ATF, the biggest reason not to use Dexron in a Ford and Type F in a GM back in the early 80's was that the oils were incompatible with each other's seal material. Many a person who thought it was just marketing hype had to pull a transmission for rebuild. I don't know JCB specifically, but if they used the same seal material as '80s Fords, you would have to pull a tranny to save $20.

Just a thought, I have nearly no experience with J(unk) C(ity) B(ackhoe)s.

Good Luck,
Mitch

 

[LowBoy]

Well, it sounds like I should just "bite the bullet" then, and go to the friendly neighborhood JCB dealer 100 miles east of here and get some JBC "special fluid", to make sure I don't have any problems. I hated to go back there after buying a fuel lift pump. I had them give me a price on the shop manuals for this machine, and they were almost $900.00 for 2 books. Maybe it's just my "lack of trust" in some circumstances, but that to me was highway robbery in the first degree. I don't like getting rooked.

Oh well, thanks for all the replies. I'll address it the proper way as it should be. I may not be online for a while now, if I have to spring for a pail of their oil, I might be down at the soup kitchen for the next few weeks, or out hunting for supper for lack of finances after buying it from them...:crying

 

[LowBoy]

One thing to keep in mind when considering ATF, the biggest reason not to use Dexron in a Ford and Type F in a GM back in the early 80's was that the oils were incompatible with each other's seal material. Many a person who thought it was just marketing hype had to pull a transmission for rebuild. I don't know JCB specifically, but if they used the same seal material as '80s Fords, you would have to pull a tranny to save $20.

Just a thought, I have nearly no experience with J(unk) C(ity) B(ackhoe)s.








Good Luck,
Mitch

Agreed. The trick to all this is to find a good 'ol crackerjack JCB man familiar with them inside and out, for my situation at least. It's an old, retired backhoe for yard use, low budget...so I have to be careful. So far I managed to skirt around a problem with the fuel filter issues I encountered by modifying a Cat spin-on housing and mounting it in place of the OEM one. Not much I can do with this oil issue, unless I make my own recipe, lol. Wonder if old drain oil mixed with never seize would work? (Just kidding, I'm not THAT crazy.)

 

[LowBoy]

Last phone call was to the JCB dealership to get the answer on the correct oil. Another twist. The "tech" there said it takes 10W motor oil. That's a new one based on all the research I've done to date. I wonder if he's old enough to be right...I wouldn't mind if he was right, but that's the first time I heard that suggestion. I hope that isn't a conspiracy to get this machine into their shop with a bad shuttle box...

 

[LowBoy]

Last phone call was to the JCB dealership to get the answer on the correct oil. Another twist. The "tech" there said it takes 10W motor oil. That's a new one based on all the research I've done to date. I wonder if he's old enough to be right...I wouldn't mind if he was right, but that's the first time I heard that suggestion. I hope that isn't a conspiracy to get this machine into their shop with a bad shuttle box...