1977 Deere 450c - Very Hard to Start in Cold

[Airman89]

I’m not a fan of ether starting diesels and would rather run the starter ragged before using. I tried soaking a rag in gas and holding it near the intake as a less harsh way of starting it but it still took me a solid 30 minutes of cranking and waiting and recharging batteries etc to get it to fire.

Would a 12v air heater work? That would be an easy enough install.

Or a 12v fuel heater?

Or lastly would a Cetane booster for the fuel aid in starting without hurting anything?

 

[Nige]

Could this be related to the engine lugging issue that you mention in your other thread.?

If something is preventing the engine turning over fast enough when you crank it then lighting the fires in cold ambient temperatures is probably going to be more difficult that it ought to be.

 

[Airman89]

I don’t believe it’s related to the engine lugging issue that I have going because it has tons of power and doesn’t smoke at all, great oil pressure too.

I’ve read that they can be difficult to start in the cold because of the lack of glow plugs or grid heater.

You may be on to something though because sometimes it cranks real fast and others are like the batteries are almost dead even thought they read 12.3v. One battery new the other is a few years old.

 

[1693TA]

I don’t believe it’s related to the engine lugging issue that I have going because it has tons of power and doesn’t smoke at all, great oil pressure too.

I’ve read that they can be difficult to start in the cold because of the lack of glow plugs or grid heater.

You may be on to something though because sometimes it cranks real fast and others are like the batteries are almost dead even thought they read 12.3v. One battery new the other is a few years old.

Nothing wrong with a "sniff" of ether to start on cold days if used correctly. Mismatched batteries is not good as the one will have more of a surface charge than it's mate. My opinion but they should be matched and replaced together.

 

[sawmilleng]

I'm in the "sniff of ether" group. I have a 1973 Case 580B backhoe that is kinda grumpy to wake up. Before I crank it I give it a couple of whiffs of ether--1-2 second squirts out of the can.

Same with my 1980's Timberjack forwarder with a Perkins diesel-- 1-2 second squirts and away it goes. My son didn't believe me and swallowed the bs about not using ether--he ground the starter until we had to replace it.

It is important to recognize that all you are trying to do is get some fire happening in the cylinders- too much ether is easy to tell because you can hear the preignition.

We have tried preheating the inlet air but it isn't very effective because the air very quickly loses any heat through the intake passages and is pretty well back at ambient temperature by the time its in place and expected to help the cylinder fire.

Put a voltmeter on each of the batteries when cranking--you may see a big difference between the two, indicating something not happy in that department.

Jon.

 

[1693TA]

There are different grades of ether too. The more expensive stuff is much more volatile which is good in the application and has immediate effect. A little sniff is all that's needed once or twice in most cases.

 

[Airman89]

Looks like I might join the “sniff of ether” group too. I’ll pass on the intake air heat idea, if I used some cetane booster in the tank, could that cause any issues? Could it possibly help start easier?

 

[Nige]

You may be on to something though because sometimes it cranks real fast and others are like the batteries are almost dead even thought they read 12.3v. One battery new the other is a few years old.

Parasitic load can be variable depending upon what the root cause is. That might explain the difference in cranking speeds.

12.3v is not great but not bad either. A fully-charged battery in good condition should be up around the 12.6-12.8v range. Try putting your multimeter right on the centre of each battery post in turn and have someone crank the starter. The results might just surprise you. I don’t think it’s worth going further until you establish the battery condition. I would suggest that you should be checking the condition of all the battery connections and grounds plus the state of the cables while you are at it.

 

[Airman89]

I just put on new cables, had a broken ground on one of the batteries inside the crimp. I moved the ground strap a little bit and it fell apart.. cranks nice, fast and consistent now. I attempted heating the air intake by connecting it to the heat vent from my truck using a dryer vent with no luck.

Time to get some ether. Still curious about a winter diesel additive or cetane booster though. Does anyone know if it would help it fire up?

 

[Nige]

Winter blend diesel will help when it comes to preventing the fuel waxing. I have my doubts whether or not it will improve starting, the same goes for cetane booster. My 2c. YMMV.

 

[Airman89]

Winter blend diesel will help when it comes to preventing the fuel waxing. I have my doubts whether or not it will improve starting, the same goes for cetane booster. My 2c. YMMV.

Thanks for all the help. I went ahead and gave it a very small sniff and it fired right up. I guess I’ll be doing that in 30 or below from now on.

 

[Steve Austin]

Go lite on the either, Deere use to market their either as having a lubricant added to it do not know if that is still the case.
Now that you have cranking speed up to par do you see lots of white or grayish smoke from exhaust?
If you do i would perform a compression, check your machine may run fine but compression low enough to give cold weather start problems. Deere provided a coolant heater for these machines it is still listed on the Deere parts page for the 450C.

 

[Steve Austin]

I was referring to checking smoke when cranking not running. Sorry left cranking part out.

 

[mg2361]

Waaaay back in the day, we used to have to measure piston protrusion when we had hard start with low compression. If compression was low, Deere offered a "High Piston" option which gave you better compression for start up. You could only use those pistons if the protrusion wasn't going to interfere with the valves.

 

[MG84]

How far is the machine usually parked from a 120v outlet? A block heater is the first thing I put on any older machine I buy. Get one of the ones that goes into a freeze plug hole on the side of the block, higher wattage is better. Often only 20-30min with the block heater on and they’ll fire up like its a warm spring day.

I also agree with the others on ether, a small spritz occasionally isn’t going to hurt a thing. If you start using it every time to start the machine that indicates bigger problems. Ditto on the batteries, always replace them together, your throwing good money after bad pairing an old battery with a brand new one.

 

[treemuncher]

If $300 is not too much to invest in your machine, search Ebay for "Diesel water heater kit". You can spend closer to $2k if you want the original German Webasto type but I find the Chinese knock offs work just fine. You could even get a cheaper air type heater for about $125 but they won't heat the block as well as the water type. The water kits come with a small circulation pump to move the coolant throughout the system to ensure even heating.

Most of these have programable on/off times so you can arrive to a preheated block for an easy start in cold weather. I have one of these on my main machine an it's a blessing during cold weather. The Cummins will start in cold weather but if I run that heater for an hour before I get to the job site, it fires up like it would on a hot summer day. Lots easier on all of the engine and hydraulic components too.

If you want to get a bit fancier, you can add your hydraulic tank to the loop with a heat exchanger. Saves me a lot of time on warm up during cold weather periods and very little chance of cavitation in the hydraulics with preheat. Time is money - how much can you afford to waste? To me, the heaters have a very fast payback vs lost productivity.

 

[Airman89]

How far is the machine usually parked from a 120v outlet? A block heater is the first thing I put on any older machine I buy. Get one of the ones that goes into a freeze plug hole on the side of the block, higher wattage is better. Often only 20-30min with the block heater on and they’ll fire up like its a warm spring day.

I also agree with the others on ether, a small spritz occasionally isn’t going to hurt a thing. If you start using it every time to start the machine that indicates bigger problems. Ditto on the batteries, always replace them together, your throwing good money after bad pairing an old battery with a brand new one.

Unfortunately I’m working on land I bought to build and there is currently no electric. In the future I like the idea of a block heater though. I can see it prolonging the life of the equipment by easy starting.

If $300 is not too much to invest in your machine, search Ebay for "Diesel water heater kit". You can spend closer to $2k if you want the original German Webasto type but I find the Chinese knock offs work just fine. You could even get a cheaper air type heater for about $125 but they won't heat the block as well as the water type. The water kits come with a small circulation pump to move the coolant throughout the system to ensure even heating.

Most of these have programable on/off times so you can arrive to a preheated block for an easy start in cold weather. I have one of these on my main machine an it's a blessing during cold weather. The Cummins will start in cold weather but if I run that heater for an hour before I get to the job site, it fires up like it would on a hot summer day. Lots easier on all of the engine and hydraulic components too.

If you want to get a bit fancier, you can add your hydraulic tank to the loop with a heat exchanger. Saves me a lot of time on warm up during cold weather periods and very little chance of cavitation in the hydraulics with preheat. Time is money - how much can you afford to waste? To me, the heaters have a very fast payback vs lost productivity.

Excellent information! I’m going to look into this as well. Right now I don’t have electric so I could benefit from this right away. Thanks for the replies!

 

[Airman89]

I was referring to checking smoke when cranking not running. Sorry left cranking part out.

Yes I have some hazy light Greyish smoke coming out while cranking. I’m sure a rebuild is in order in the future. For now oil pressure is great and power is great as well so I think I’ll be ok to run it for a while yet. I have 47 psi oil pressure at full throttle. Specs say 50 +/- 15psi at full throttle.