1977 Deere 450c Engine Lugs even in Neutral

[Airman89]

Just bought a 450c a few weeks ago.

History:
I had a brake adjusted too tight that made it so steering lever was very tight and would not disengage the clutches, it would only steer with the brake. I backed it off and my steering was fixed. I measured clutch travel and have just shy of 4”, manual states it needs adjusted if less than 3.25”, ideally 3.75” is good. All adjustments seem good..

Issue:
Engine lugs no matter if I am in R N H Or L, the very second that I start releasing the clutch pedal. All the way to the floor disengages everything including PTO(2nd stage of clutch), when I let up a little PTO will engage but the drive is still disengaged(1st stage of clutch), all the way up and drive and PTO will be engaged. So initially I thought something with the PTO or hydraulics was the culprit BUT.. then I noticed both tracks tighten up like it wants to drive and engine bogs down like it’s under load (keep in mind this happens when clutch is in 1st stage and drive should still be disengaged, AND EVEN in neutral).

Engine is strong running, 47 psi oil pressure at full throttle, hydraulics all work great, no leaks of any fluids at all, really lugs but will push dirt and keep spinning tracks good power, steers nice and easy, brakes work good. I haven’t changed the transmission fluid or filter but after running it I checked it and it looks like new. No sign of water. I do wonder about the filter condition (the mesh one), but I really didn’t want to replace the trans fluid when it looks new.

Question:

-What would cause the engine to lug/drive to be somewhat engaged, with clutch depressed and in neutral, and yet not drive?
-Do I have a slipping clutch causing pedal to not disengage drive? I don’t think this would explain it even happening in neutral though.
-Do I have a HL or R clutches staying engaged?
- Does transmission pressure release or engage the HLR clutches? Maybe the control valve is stuck giving some pressure to one of the clutches?

Here’s a video to give an idea. I can see the tracks tighten in person in neutral, the video doesn’t show it too well, but pay attention to the rpm’s drop. My 555a didn’t lug that hard when the tracks were rusted frozen even… I know this isn’t right.

450c Engine Lugging

Thanks for any help you all can give. This forum is invaluable in helping with these old machines. I appreciate it greatly,

Adam

 

[Simon C]

You will need to hook up gauges to F/R Clutch test ports, Speed clutch test ports, and see if there is oil powering up a clutch that ought not. Maybe some seals have let go in control valve?
Did it just start to happen recently. Could the torque be overfull of oil? Hopefully someone who owns one will chime in.
Sounded like the fuel rack responded quicly to the load coming on.
Simon C

 

[mg2361]

Welcome to HEF Airman89 !

Has the transmission pressures been checked? Lube pressure been checked? Hydraulic clutch adjusted correctly? Unfortunately, with the tracks trying to move in neutral, I think your clutch plates are warped. Low lube pressure is usually the cause of warped plates.

 

[Airman89]

You will need to hook up gauges to F/R Clutch test ports, Speed clutch test ports, and see if there is oil powering up a clutch that ought not. Maybe some seals have let go in control valve?
Did it just start to happen recently. Could the torque be overfull of oil? Hopefully someone who owns one will chime in.
Sounded like the fuel rack responded quicly to the load coming on.
Simon C

Ok yes I’m on my way out to the 450c now and I brought an oil gauge with me. Hopefully it’s something simple. I forgot to mention, I just bought it and the guy told me he took it in on a trade and had to repair the left steering because it wouldn’t steer left. The left brake was locked up when I got it (I couldn’t believe they replaced the clutches, a sprocket, etc but left the brake tight). It was bad enough that the left drive wouldn’t disengage clutches.

Welcome to HEF Airman89 !

Has the transmission pressures been checked? Lube pressure been checked? Hydraulic clutch adjusted correctly? Unfortunately, with the tracks trying to move in neutral, I think your clutch plates are warped. Low lube pressure is usually the cause of warped plates.

Thanks for the welcome! I haven’t checked pressures but I am on my way to do so now. Clutch is 1/4” loose I’ll be tightening that as well. Did you happen to watch the video? The tracks don’t jolt or really try to move hard but it’s like they tighten a bit. I hope it’s not warped clutches!

If the HLR pressure adjustments are off, could this be the culprit?

Another thing, he said he never replaced the transmission oil or filters. Would a plugged belly screen cause this if I do have a lack of pressure at the clutches?

Also, if the clutches were warped, would smoothing power shifting through HLR be possible? It shifts smoothly, no noises, and with the proper amount of delay time.

Thanks again for the help guys.

 

[Dave Neubert]

pull both string clutches back and see if it still lugs sounds like warped discs

 

[1693TA]

Welcome to HEF Airman89 !

Has the transmission pressures been checked? Lube pressure been checked? Hydraulic clutch adjusted correctly? Unfortunately, with the tracks trying to move in neutral, I think your clutch plates are warped. Low lube pressure is usually the cause of warped plates.

I had a 450C for a short time and that was the problem with mine. I rebuilt the steering clutches with new frictions and steels along with a few small parts and the problem was resolved. Absolutely no maintenance by the prior owner was the root cause. With rebuilt clutches, new filters, and complete fluid changeout, everything was back into specifications range and worked what I thought was well.

Didn't have a need for the tractor but yielded to downward pressure from my wife to sell as our daughter was coming along.

 

[Airman89]

Quick update:

I couldn’t help but fire it up and see what else I can find before adjusting everything. I put the speed selector in neutral, and released clutch in each HLR and rpm’s would lug some in H and L, but in R it about shut off.

Transmission is overfilled too.

Now another thing, when I did this with the speed selector in neutral, the tracks never tried to spin but the engine still lugs?

Does this sound like warped Reverser clutches?

Again it shifts great, no clutch needed, and has good power but the engine is lugging. Knowing this, if it turns out to be warped clutches is it safe to finish the job I’m doing? I have to dig a few stumps out with the backhoe and move some real small mounds of top soil. I would REALLY like to finish this job so I can get it in the shop to work on it.

 

[Airman89]

Well things came up and I was unable to finish the pressure tests and adjustments yesterday.

what are the likely consequences of running it like it is to finish the small job? Is it likely for clutch discs to grenade if I run it? I’ve got maybe 14 hours of work left half of which is on the backhoe. When in neutral and on the backhoe that shouldn’t be furthering damage correct? It would only be when moving in gear?

 

[mg2361]

Nearly stalling in reverse concerns me.

When I have a chance, I'll run that 450 back at the shop (hopefully the customer didn't pick it up yet) to see how much it lugs for comparison. I know some lugging is normal from parasitic drag when the clutch is released, but don't remember how much drag is normal. I would think if it about stalls the engine in reverse, then the drag is probably excessive. Does the temperature of the trans make a difference?

I would not be afraid to run it to finish your job.

 

[Airman89]

To clarify on the reverse, it never almost stalls or lugs down anywhere near that hard when I’m running in reverse or shifting to reverse when driving. It ONLY does that when I have the speed selector at neutral (between 3 and 4 gear).

That would be great if you could let me know. I’ve wondered if the amount of lugging I see is normal. The only real reason I got concerned was because of the lugging in neutral and the slight harder lugging in reverse than L or H. It drives and shifts great. If I bury the bucket it’ll spin the tracks and keep pushing. I have a 555a too and have never heard that kind of bogging either and it’s power shift too though. I can barely even tell when it shifts into the gear (as far as engine sound change.)

 

[mg2361]

The harder lugging may be due to the reverse clutch is also driving the reverse countershaft.

 

[Airman89]

The harder lugging may be due to the reverse clutch is also driving the reverse countershaft.

Well I ran it for a solid 8 hours with no issues and no changes in the way it drives. However it looks like the left steering clutches are no disengaging at all in L or H, but in Reverse they do sometimes? I really need to spend the time adjusting everything. Hopefully I don’t cause damage before I finish the job!!

 

[Airman89]

I’ve been running it and it runs good but all the sudden it’s shutting off on me when I use the backhoe… it’s exceptionally cold today with a high wind but I feel like something keeps tripping. When it shuts off I’m at around 2200 rpms and lifting the backhoe, it won’t start right back up and it acts like the batteries are dead because the gauge don’t twitch like they normally do when you turn key on. Battery voltage good. If I wait about 10 minutes, it’ll fire right up..

Any ideas what this might be?

Are there any relays that could kill the engine?

The temperature gauge reads very hot but it’s inaccurate. Before I fire it up for the first time it’s in the green already. I checked with a laser gun and it reads around 175/180 after running it.

Alternator is not working so voltage is down to 12.19 but regardless, it’s like I have 0volts, but at the starter solenoid I show 12.19.. no click and no gauge twitches like it always does when I turn key on.

*Update the first couple times it would fire back up 10 minutes later. Now it won’t fire at all.

 

[Airman89]

Well I don’t know what happened but it randomly started and it ran another 3 hours until I shut it down for the day.

 

[Welder Dave]

Make sure the quick couplers for the backhoe hyd's. are properly coupled. They can get worn where they don't allow full flow. If one of the hyd. valves isn't fully centered and trying to operate a cylinder will make it hard to start as well. Both conditions could make the hyd. pump load the engine and hard or impossible to start.

 

[mg2361]

Attached is a video of the HLR engine pulldown from the unit in our yard. Ambient temp was 35*F, and the HLR temp approximately the same.

Normal 450C engine pulldown with HLR clutch engagement

 

[Airman89]

Make sure the quick couplers for the backhoe hyd's. are properly coupled. They can get worn where they don't allow full flow. If one of the hyd. valves isn't fully centered and trying to operate a cylinder will make it hard to start as well. Both conditions could make the hyd. pump load the engine and hard or impossible to start.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think everything checks out on the hydraulic side of things. When I use the hydraulics, the engine rarely lugs down. The shutting off turned out to be bad wiring behind the dash.

Attached is a video of the HLR engine pulldown from the unit in our yard. Ambient temp was 35*F, and the HLR temp approximately the same.

Normal 450C engine pulldown with HLR clutch engagement

Thanks for taking the time to do this. Yes I would say I definitely have a problem then. The guy I bought it from is willing to buy the clutch plates if it turns out to be the problem.

I still haven’t adjusted the HLR but I think that could be the problem yet. Today I was doing a few things with the 450c and I noticed between shifts is a lot closer than I thought. When going to reverse it snaps the tracks FAST. I’m talking if you count “One Mississippi”, you’ll be lucky to get “One…” counted. Maybe. It’s hard to do with a stopwatch but I got .23 seconds in between shifts. It’s supposed to be 1.5 seconds. Could the speed of shift adjustment cause the clutch plates to stay engaged somehow? Or cause the reverse lugging?

If there’s a chance then I’ll buckle down and adjust it tomorrow before running it more.

 

[mg2361]

Could the speed of shift adjustment cause the clutch plates to stay engaged somehow? Or cause the reverse lugging?

The HLR clutch adjustment can affect the shift (usually makes it a hard, snappy shift). That adjustment needs to be checked. Just make sure your mechanical clutch free play adjustment is correct first. The HLR clutch adjustment however will not make the clutches drag. That is another issue.

If the unit did shift properly at one time, then the rate of shift adjustment would most likely not be an issue. That would not change unless it was loose.

 

[Airman89]

The HLR clutch adjustment can affect the shift (usually makes it a hard, snappy shift). That adjustment needs to be checked. Just make sure your mechanical clutch free play adjustment is correct first. The HLR clutch adjustment however will not make the clutches drag. That is another issue.

If the unit did shift properly at one time, then the rate of shift adjustment would most likely not be an issue. That would not change unless it was loose.

Well I started adjust the clutch free play but I can seem to get it to adjust? I’ve turn the adjust screw probably 3 full rotations with no impact on the clutch pedal free travel. It’s still at about 4” and the manual calls for 3-3/4”.

It shouldn’t take a whole lot of turns to bring it 1/4” right? I don’t think it’s moved even 1/16”.

Oh and I just realized I never answered your question about the transmission temperature. The gauge does work and it never goes higher than the first notch (low in the green). It stays nice even hours into working it. To me, and I might be wrong, but it doesn’t sound like clutches are sticking or generating heat?

Lastly, I notice it doesn’t lug as hard after ran for a while. If clutches were warped or sticking wouldn’t it be constant?

 

[mg2361]

I notice it doesn’t lug as hard after ran for a while. If clutches were warped or sticking wouldn’t it be constant?

I would think that would be the case. The only caveat being with cold oil there would be more drag than with oil at operating temperature.

Well I started adjust the clutch free play but I can seem to get it to adjust?

Dumb question, are you turning the adjustment the correct direction?