older 613 Cat scraper, with torque converter issues

ive an older 613 Cat scraper. Trying to find s/n (under operators platform on frame?). After sitting for a period of time, i had to let it sit idling in gear for about 15 min, with bowl on ground, before trans would engage. I am noticing driveshaft from torque converter to trans is turning very slowly, regardless of engine rpm. Does torque converter pump trans fluid to torque converter? A construction mechanic mentioned maybe torque converter pump is not pumping fluid, and possibly try unhooking converter to trans oil line and pouring fluid into torque converter, so it will start pumping. Also, nobody is home in fourth gear, however the lower three work fine. i'm assuming that problem would be in the trans. any advice with these issues?
Thank You for your consideration! Jim

JUMPIN JIMMY said:

ive an older 613 Cat scraper. Trying to find s/n (under operators platform on frame?).

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Any chance of numbers off any tags? Like engine or converter? Even a picture or two might help identify it. Think you might have to post a few times before you can upload a picture.

You would be best by starting off with changing the filter, cleaning the suction screen, and making sure you have the proper oil at the proper level.

Just a bit of information on why identifying what machine we are talking about here:

WHEEL TRACTOR-SCRAPER
Model Prefix
613 WHEEL SCRAPER 72M
613 WHEEL TRACTOR 71M
613B WHEEL SCRAPER 72M
613B WHEEL TRACTOR 38W
613C WHEEL SCRAPER 93X
613C WHEEL TRACTOR 92X
613C II WAGON LCZ
613C II WHEEL SCRAPER TJK
613C II WHEEL TRACTOR 8LJ
613C II WHEEL TRACTOR B6J
613C II WHEEL TRACTOR KEH
613G WHEEL TRACTOR DXA
613G WHEEL TRACTOR-SCRAPER DBE
613G WHEEL TRACTOR-SCRAPER ESB
613G WHEEL TRACTOR-SCRAPER YCB

Just don't want to give advice for the wrong machine!

The old 613's I worked on a lifetime ago, I could have sworn the serial tag was on the frame behind the transmission. YMMV.

Try looking where the white arrow is pointing........failing that get an engine S/N (black arrow 2nd photo)

Hey I was close, LOL!

Thank You, Thank You White arrow guy (Nige)!! and lantraxco! We have a 613 s/n 71M448. Not sure why I didnt see that-especially as i just replaced batteries..also, as i'm an older (70) semi-retired mechanic/operator, suffered a back injury on a 627G, in 2005. Okay now, and busy always on our small farm, always moving some kind of dirt. Unit has been sitting for three years. Any tips on freeing stuck shift cables, they take grease.
Thank You to each one that considers these questions-I seriously appreciate it! Jim

You say it's been standing for 3 years. Have any of the oils & filters (esp. the transmission) been changed.? The chances are that condensation will have got into systems all over the place. The 15 minutes wait time sounds the pump sucking air from somewhere, or the oil is too thick.

JUMPIN JIMMY said:

I am noticing driveshaft from torque converter to trans is turning very slowly, regardless of engine rpm.

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Does the drive shaft stop turning when you (eventually) engage a gear either forward or reverse.? This is before you move the machine of course.

JUMPIN JIMMY said:

Also, nobody is home in fourth gear

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One clutch in the transmission (#1) is only engaged in 4th speed and none of the others. The clutch could be fried or something simple such as a problem in the control valve not allowing oil to flow to it.

On the basis of the above I'd suggest to first remove the transmission filter & cut it open to inspect for particles. Plenty of videos on youtube showing how to do a filter cut.
If you find a load of black particles then drain the oil, pull the suction screen (#18 on the illustration below), collect all the particles you find, and clean it. Take photos and post them here.
Depending on what you find in the filter and the screen the suggestions of how to proceed further might be different. Worst case scenario is the transmission will need to come out.

Also worth a close look is the suction line between the transmission (which forms the pan for the powertrain oil) and the pump, especially the 90-deg flexible hose (#18) next to the transmission that has a nothing more than a couple of hose clamps on each end of it. Also on that suction line are two short straight hoses (#22) that again are only secured by hose clamps. Circled red on the illustration.
And that's before you start thinking of any of the O-Rings on the flanges of the suction lines between the transmission case and the pump suction (circled blue).

Hi Nige,
Removed filter on trans, cut it apart, and have pics of it. Everything seemed good, the oil on trans dipstick looks very good (again see pic). Also have pics of the two flex hoses on the line from trans to converter.. They look okay, however the one is spongy (#18), the other one (23) is very stiff with a rub point that (in the pic, about midway, where there is a loose hose clamp) I can feel the wire in the hose. I suspicion the hoses are for coolant, not oil. Probably best to replace both of them. I will grab a new filter and hoses tomorrow and install. What is the correct oil?

Pull both screens and clean them.
Adjust shift linkage not with motor running!!
Refill oil SAE 30 drive train and check pump pressure at plug on filter housing, should be about 300 psi in all gears forward and reverse.
Be careful.
Bob

Bluox said:

Pull both screens and clean them.
Adjust shift linkage not with motor running!!
Refill oil SAE 30 drive train and check pump pressure at plug on filter housing, should be about 300 psi in all gears forward and reverse.
Be careful.
Bob

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“Both” screens? One is in the lower front of trans-the other one is where? Or are they both in the same location?
Thanks jim

The torque screen is in a t fitting under the plug in the scavenge line next to the transmission pump.
Bob

Hi Nige,
To answer your last question, driveshaft just rotates slowly regardless of engine rpm or trans in gear or not. I removed the screen in the lower front of trans. Picture shows shrapnel on screen magnet...other picture of trans numbers. Thanks, Jim
Bob, I cant seem to see the other screen you referred to..? Thanks, Jim

Hello Nige and Bluox,
Just wondering about your responses to my questions?
Thanks, jim

Well been having some trouble getting used to the SIS 2.0 but might have found the other screen/strainer. I'm going to try and attach a pdf showing where and how to remove them.

Hi Nige,
I responded to your email, then noticed not able to reply to the email. Do you have another email I can respond to?
Thank you

If you can get to the torque divider drive line and unbolt it and slide it back far enough to see if the converter turns freely?
If it does then I see a transmission removal in your future .
Did you find the torque screen?
Bob

Hello Nige,
Longtime, no talk. Hope you’re well. As you may recall, after some work 613 transmission functioned. I actually sold machine to some friends of mine who have a mainly demo construction business, to strip topsoil with. We actually hauled several loads with scraper. Although transmission works (gears 1-3, 4th has not worked since I’ve had it), what it does after about 15-20 minutes, is goes into neutral (no forward or reverse). Sit with it for about 5 minutes, then it will go again for another 15 minutes. Went through the shift cable adjustments that you sent me. After lots of fine tuning that, what it does now is kicks in and out of gear almost continuously..currently it won’t move at all. The new suction hoses are all tight. The transmission fluid level seems erratic, as in today it’s full when idling, come back tomorrow and it’s around a gallon low. And there is no sign of any leak..i feel confident the shift cable adjustments are where they need to be. When I first got it going, it would stay in gear, so just not sure what’s going on. Should pump pressure be checked? Or trans valve body malfunctioning? When it moves trans seems fine.
Thank you very much for your consideration! Jim