Ductile Iron parts

RZucker · Feb 15, 2019

On another forum (Welding) I keep hearing guys say that Case ductile iron, the parts labeled "DO NOT WELD" can be repaired. I have never tried it over liability concerns... Is it possible? Local Case service manager says "No". I feel he's being honest with me and I just replace the stuff. I have noticed that loader bucket dog bones are now steel replacements, maybe they learned a lesson.
What say the herd?

alrman · Feb 15, 2019

It can be welded - using the correct rods.
In saying that, it would depend on the nature of the repair & if safety was involved if the weld would fail...... hence the dealer hesitation.

I have repaired dozens of Carraro front axles where the lower king pin bearings have failed, using a high percentage nickel electrode. This is a very soft metal (and expensive!!) which acts as a great filler & will not crystalize & so can be machined.

I have also seen a backhoe boom break & be successfully repaired with the same electrodes.
This occurred maybe 10yrs ago, the dipper pivot pin had dislodged & while swinging the boom one of the eyes at the end of the boom snapped clean in two. The broken piece was welded back in place & never had a problem with it again.
Apparently, the boom repair was done without any preheating, only small amounts of weld done with cooling time in between each weld.

AzIron · Feb 15, 2019

I have seen a case boom crack welded up and go till the machine was shot

That said the guy that welded it could weld a juicy fruit wrapper together and make it look like it was nothing

RZucker · Feb 15, 2019

AzIron said:
I have seen a case boom crack welded up and go till the machine was shot

That said the guy that welded it could weld a juicy fruit wrapper together and make it look like it was nothing

You are positive this was a ductile boom or a stick? No offense to either poster here but I would like to hear (or see) a definite procedure and some proof that it can be done. Not nitpicking I would just like to have Definitive answers about this. I am no expert with cast iron but can do a good job with regular grey iron and nickel. But from research Ductile is quite the different animal as far as the graphite content.

alrman · Feb 15, 2019

RZucker said:
You are positive this was a ductile boom or a stick?

RE the boom - Case 580SM - ductile iron
Re the cararro axles - 580SK; 580SL; 580SM; - ductile iron

I'm not a pro welder - but if you keep asking questions you should get the info you need.
I started repairing the front axles as a matter of necessity, asked a few knowledgeable welders for some tips. Never had a repair I have done crack or break.

This thread shows what can be done when you have to

RZucker · Feb 15, 2019

alrman said:
RE the boom - Case 580SM - ductile iron
Re the cararro axles - 580SK; 580SL; 580SM; - ductile iron

I'm not a pro welder - but if you keep asking questions you should get the info you need.
I started repairing the front axles as a matter of necessity, asked a few knowledgeable welders for some tips. Never had a repair I have done crack or break.

This thread shows what can be done when you have to

Thanks, I Appreciate your input.

colson04 · Feb 15, 2019

Welding isnt my specialty, but years ago, I spent a large amount of time in a lab studying the machinability of ductile iron from a production stand point. Learned a lot about ductile iron specifically and it's properties.

As for welding of iron in general: it is possible as long as correct process is used. Wrong rods, too much heat, etc and you create a very brittle zone beside the welded area that will snap with minimal force similar to glass. @alrman Is correct about the high nickle rods. 45-55% nickle is needed.

Attached is a link to a pdf download about in-field welding of ductile iron pipe. It has the pertinent information listed step by step.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dipra.org/ductile-iron-pipe-resources/technical-publications/guidelines?download=31:field-welding-and-cutting-ductile-iron-pipe&ved=2ahUKEwjb2L_rnL_gAhUMzoMKHUIcD5sQFjABegQIDRAE&usg=AOvVaw3WiyXZvVVeYL46Ac_nSEyg

AzIron · Feb 15, 2019

RZucker said:
You are positive this was a ductile boom or a stick? No offense to either poster here but I would like to hear (or see) a definite procedure and some proof that it can be done. Not nitpicking I would just like to have Definitive answers about this. I am no expert with cast iron but can do a good job with regular grey iron and nickel. But from research Ductile is quite the different animal as far as the graphite content.

Yea I am sure cause I was surprised myself

I can't say I would do it I definitely dont weld that good that is actually one of the reasons I shy away from case

RZucker · Feb 15, 2019

Thanks guys, I guess it may be possible. Just wondering about a break across a stick or something of that nature.

Nige · Feb 16, 2019

I'm interested what type of stick would be ductile iron. Please elaborate ......
Regarding the dog bones you might find you spend more in time and materials to repair than a new one costs.
Eutectic Nucleotec 2222 high-nickel electrodes. If you want 45+% elongation, that's the boy for it. Not cheap by any means though. https://www.castolin.com/product/eutectrode-xuper-nucleotec-2222

crane operator · Feb 16, 2019

Nige said:
I'm interested what type of stick would be ductile iron. Please elaborate ......

I don't know what all models use them, but here's some pictures of a L model. Case uses a ductile iron for the boom and dipper on the backhoe and I think the dogbone arms on the loader. Cast right into the pieces is "WARNING DUCTILE IRON DO NOT WELD"

crane operator · Feb 16, 2019

I'm sure it was for manufacturing time savings. Cast a boom out of ductile iron and machine the bores would take a lot less time than welding together a boom. It is kind of a pain though when they are 25 year old machines that have been abused hard and someone wants you to weld it all together, where its been cracked and broken over the years.

I think these are all the cast pieces.

Nige · Feb 16, 2019

I think you're 100% correct that they are all cast. I don't generally get into "Lawns & Gardens" type stuff so it's all a bit foreign to me. I see that the equivalent structures on backhoes are fabricated and therefore are weldable.
TBH I am of the opinion that Case are covering their a$$es by putting the "Do Not Weld" indications on there. Maybe the type of customer who would own a backhoe might not be very skilled at welding. I guess there is something in that.
To give you an example a Cat 992G/K loader boom is cast and is weldable. I am not sure of the material, probably not ductile. There are very lengthy and detailed instructions available giving the exact procedure that must be followed in order to carry out weld repairs on it, and also detailing certain areas of the boom where it is absolutely forbidden to weld. But then again the average 992 loader owner would likely have a fully-equipped maintenance shop plus probably one or more specialist welding companies that they could call on to do welding work on cast material.

AzIron · Feb 16, 2019

Nige said:
I think you're 100% correct that they are all cast. I don't generally get into "Lawns & Gardens" type stuff so it's all a bit foreign to me. I see that the equivalent structures on backhoes are fabricated and therefore are weldable.
TBH I am of the opinion that Case are covering their a$$es by putting the "Do Not Weld" indications on there. Maybe the type of customer who would own a backhoe might not be very skilled at welding. I guess there is something in that.
To give you an example a Cat 992G/K loader boom is cast and is weldable. I am not sure of the material, probably not ductile. There are very lengthy and detailed instructions available giving the exact procedure that must be followed in order to carry out weld repairs on it, and also detailing certain areas of the boom where it is absolutely forbidden to weld. But then again the average 992 loader owner would likely have a fully-equipped maintenance shop plus probably one or more specialist welding companies that they could call on to do welding work on cast material.

View attachment 192868

Nige I get your point and for a certain point of owners you are correct also case is the cheapest backhoe you can buy right now and has always been as long as I can remember but there are a long list of owner operators in the backhoe world that are some of the most resourceful mechanics and welders out of necessity they can't stay in business without doing all that and they are the guys that figure out how to do it cause its betting you can fix it over buying a boom you really have nothing to loose

Now on the other side of that there are owner operators that dont know witch end of the wrench does what and always have payments so they have warranty

As a small excavation contractor that lives and dies by the lawn and garden equipment ( I really thought that was funny) it's not in the cards to have a nice shop and specialty equipment and awesome mechanic I wouldn't be able even think of machinist or specialty welder

Welder Dave · Feb 16, 2019

There are a lot of owners that do "attempt" their own welding but a large portion of them wouldn't fully comprehend that certain materials require very specific procedures in order to be properly repaired. Most of the time they are in a hurry to get their machine fixed and may not have all the tools required to do the repair. If 'it's mild steel or even cast steel it can usually tolerate certain short cuts and a less than specific procedure. You get into cast iron/ductile iron, especially on something like a backhoe boom and it's a huge liability if an attempted repair breaks.

RZucker · Feb 16, 2019

Welder Dave said:
There are a lot of owners that do "attempt" their own welding but a large portion of them wouldn't fully comprehend that certain materials require very specific procedures in order to be properly repaired. Most of the time they are in a hurry to get their machine fixed and may not have all the tools required to do the repair. If 'it's mild steel or even cast steel it can usually tolerate certain short cuts and a less than specific procedure. You get into cast iron/ductile iron, especially on something like a backhoe boom and it's a huge liability if an attempted repair breaks.

This is why I tell the customers "Replace it". I have no issues with steel, cast or rolled... but Iron... No. Not saying I wont repair a manifold or such, but booms or sticks, no.

Nige · Feb 16, 2019

Welder Dave made the point I was trying to make, but far more eloquently.
There are a lot of people out there owning and/or maintaining equipment whose ambition far outweighs their ability & knowledge.

alrman · Feb 17, 2019

Here's a couple of pics of an old Case 580D (1981 era) I came across a few years ago.
The cast swing tower had been repaired by somebody???
This is before the days when Case would cast a "do not weld" sign on their equipment.

Nige · Feb 17, 2019

And I’m sure it’s repairs like those photos, and even worse the ones that failed catastrophically, that caused Case to put their “Do Not Weld” notice into the castings.

alrman · Feb 17, 2019

@Nige - Yes, but this particular old girl had done quite a few years work at the time I took the pic (2013) & is still working, albeit farm / property maintenance.

Ductile Iron parts

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