New 9yd Machine

LoaderMonkey · Mar 30, 2011

Thanks for the photos. I appreciate them. Regardless of technology, it is refreshing to see someone shaking up this market. It improves the competition in the long run and makes the products better. In the end, the equipment users benefit.

d9gdon · Mar 31, 2011

Of course there are those in the market that are an easy sale and want to try new products immediately. They want to be the first ones on the block to have it or they have an immediate need for it and trust the manufacturer explicitly. These people are the ones most influenced by marketing. Some manufacturers have used them as an extension of their R&D departments in product testing. LeTourneau is the first one to pop into my mind with some of their crazy creations when R.G. was at the helm. I'm not in this group.

The salesman for the worst loader manufacturer that you can think of probably didn't lie to his customers either. He thought that they were good value. He must not have been qualified to judge though because his machine is the worst in the market remember?

I move dirt from Point A to Point B. Even though I'm not a World Traveler, I can still make an informed decision on a purchase.

I see that you are involved in a construction magazine and I'm guessing that as an advertiser Deere spends millions of dollars each year in magazines such as yours. I think that we'll all agree that their are some products such as loaders, dozers, and excavators in the market that are junk. I'm just trying to remember the last article I read that was written about them...not that you have a vested interest or anything.

Burnout · Apr 2, 2011

Let's keep this topic alive. I promised the video and we've made it happen.

As I said I think this is a great product and John Deere usually does a great job of thinking the product through. Jumping in the new products at the show you can tell they are listening to people. I can think of some other manufacturers that aren't doing such a hot job at that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQY4ehsvKB0

Tigerotor77W · Apr 2, 2011

Burnout said:
I see the potential for Deere to cut a nice little hole in 988 sales

Guys... the 944K isn't necessarily a direct competitor to the 988 or WA600 or L350. Both Deere and Volvo are seeing a need for a size class slated just about the 7.5 yd class but below the 10 yd class -- and this is also where the L250G fits in. I think the 944K will compete in a bank loader market that requires machines more powerful than the 7.5 yd class but that isn't as large or as production-oriented as the 10 yd class, but of course we'll see how it turns out in its final form.

I think there will be challenges in bringing a diesel-electric drive to a wheel loader in this size class, but I think the D7E stole the 944K's thunder. Had the 944K been the first diesel-electric machine to be unveiled, it'd be heralded as the pioneer; as the D7E has come out, I think it grabbed the major headlines first, even if the magnitude of the engineering challenge is the same or greater for the 944K.

Burnout, don't be deceived: just because Deere is making a big deal about its efforts to get owners' opinions does not mean other manufacturers are not listening. I applaud Deere for what they're doing -- brand image is worth a lot in today's market, and they are very clear about how they want to differentiate their image -- but no engineering department is so isolated that it doesn't bring in customers to hear their stories. Execution of realizing end users' opinions... that's another story entirely.

Burnout · Apr 2, 2011

I like to think Deere is listening because of some key features I am seeing come down the lines. I know what your saying and I know other companies are listening. But look at the new Deere G series hoes, the radio/hvac controls are on the right side console under the monitor. And they display on the main monitor. They have put the cup holders in the K series dozers within easy reach as well as the HVAC controls. The sealed panel in the wheel loaders has got better yet again, then there is that whole steering wheel in graders thing.

I realize every company works on different aspect of the product line and yeah the 7E is gonna get the thunder over the 944. They are going to have some challenges especially stepping into a new size class but it seems to have worked for them with the 844.

farm_boy · Apr 2, 2011

There are some that adopt new technologies early and are on the forefront of looking for new ways to reduce their costs. There are those in the middle that neither adopt early nor wait until the technology is mature. Then there are those that are technology laggarts that resist new technology almost to the point that they don't change simply for the sake of "we have been doing it this way for years and it works."

With that being said I have seen many companies across the world grasp the wonders of new innovations first and use these advantages as leverage against their competition. These companies are almost always the ones that have the largest growth and are the most profitable. Those that continue to buy old equipment and rebuild it time and time again, don't use any kind of grade control and only move dirt one way regardless of the conditions are usually the first ones to suffer the same fate as cable dozers and steam shovels...they simply aren't around anymore.

The point of my rant is that no matter how good the 944K/D7E/etc etc are there will be people that will not buy them because "they will let others work out the bugs". Many people get all emotional about these types of decisions. The fact of the matter is that these are business decisions based upon calculated risks...that's it...nothing more and nothing less. There are many people out there that are being forced to do more with less with rising fuel, labor, insurance, etc costs. If electrification of powertrains can reduce their cost per ton by 10%, 20%, 30% it becomes less of a "gamble" and more of a calculated risk. There will no doubt be those that have a higher tolerance for risk than others. Like any business risk the pay off of that risk may be the difference in millions of dollars per year and the difference if a company continues to make payroll when the economy takes another turn downward. In my experience quarry operations will kill for a reduction in their cost per ton by a penny or two.

One other factor that companies will take into consideration is the ability of the manufacturer and dealer to support these new machines. If the manufacturer and dealer have a proven track record of supporting machines then the risk of the new powertrain is futher reduced.

d9gdon · Apr 3, 2011

farm_boy,

You're forgetting that it'll have a higher resale value too, what with all that copper in there. I heard that scrap copper's going for something like 3 bucks a pound.

Deereman · Apr 3, 2011

d9gdon, why does it seem that you go after anything deere?? I hate cat and most everyone knows it but I try to keep my negatives to short unless asked.

d9gdon · Apr 4, 2011

I just can't get past the fact that this is old technology and most of the pioneer engineering work should be attributed to LeTourneau's classic wheel loader design, not Caterpillar's D7E dozer. A dozer has a totally different application. LeT's wheel loaders have the exact same application as this 944K; load, dump, and cycle. I'm saying this street is already paved for someone wanting to go down it.

Surely it hasn't taken all the other manufacturers 50 years to see the benefits. Now that's the wait and see approach. It's easier to downsize proven technology than it is to upsize it, ceteris paribus.

Caterpillar did almost the same thing with the new D7E by copying the Tournadozer concept.

I fully expect one or both of them to come out with a 2 stroke diesel to put in one of their machines and yell from a mountaintop how it's a quantum leap in fuel efficiency.

alco · Apr 4, 2011

d9gdon said:
I just can't get past

Yeah, we've noticed.......

d9gdon said:
this is old technology and most of the pioneer engineering work should be attributed to LeTourneau's classic wheel loader design

If you really understood this, you'd see this is actually new technology applied to an old, proven concept. But until recently, the technology available didn't make the system feasible (either practically or economically) for a smaller application such as this.

d9gdon said:
LeT's wheel loaders have the exact same application as this 944K; load, dump, and cycle. I'm saying this street is already paved for someone wanting to go down it.

I'm guessing you've never worked in a mine with large loaders, the application is not exactly the same. When it comes down to it, all loaders have a pretty similar application when loading trucks, but there are definitely differences. The big key here, is that until recently, the technology just didn't match up to the application of electric drive to smaller machines....not that you'll listen.

d9gdon said:
Surely it hasn't taken all the other manufacturers 50 years to see the benefits. Now that's the wait and see approach. It's easier to downsize proven technology than it is to upsize it

Not always the case. Modern techniques and materials have allowed the manufacturers to downsize and apply this technology to new applications like so many have mentioned. If you go back to the technology R.G. LeTourneau started with and developed, and tried to downsize it, then you'd find it just wouldn't work for this.

d9gdon said:
Caterpillar did almost the same thing with the new D7E by copying the Tournadozer concept.

So, you do realise that the Tournadozers were rubber tired, mechanical drive machines right? So as you stated, that's a different application....which makes it not really relevant here.

I think what we keep seeing, is you confuse the terms technology and concept. This is new technology, but not a new concept. There is in fact a rather large difference between the two.

Deereman · Apr 4, 2011

Alco, Im not good with my words on here, but you hit the nail on the head.
D9g, I don't think deere is trying to still any thunder here. If anything saying its an honor. And as some of you already know, deere went stright to the horses mouth with this. Le'T nugged deere in the right direction if you know what I mean.. Deere is busting it's backside trying to get customers what they want and are really just now getting to explore new ideas and options. Not saying that the rest are sitting still. When I see komatsu or cat or whoever coming out with something and I see a little sweat rolling off of Deere I like it. That usually means they are about to (or already have) getting ready for round 2, 3 or 10. When deere bought a 30% or so stake in bell. They already knew the direction they were going. And the 460E is just the latest thing to come from that marriage.

d9gdon · Apr 5, 2011

alco said:
If you really understood this, you'd see this is actually new technology applied to an old, proven concept. But until recently, the technology available didn't make the system feasible (either practically or economically) for a smaller application such as this.

http://www.elektroauto-aktuell.de/hybrid-4.html

I guess like former President Bill Clinton, it depends on what your definition of "recent" is. It sounds like Ferdinand Porsche had it downsized recently too, according to the link above. By it, I mean a series based ICE-electric system like the 944K as opposed to a parallel type sytem or one like the 644K. LeTourneau built the Pacemaker TR-60 diesel electric truck in 1959 that used about the same size tires and wheels as the 944K from my interpretation of the pictures I've seen, so I'm guessing that the size of the electric wheel motors have not been the hindrance to this new technology. I don't see where the other components have held it up either. Computers have been controlling machine functions, generators are about the same size, batteries are not an issue, wiring and circuits about the same, etc., etc.

alco said:
The big key here, is that until recently, the technology just didn't match up to the application of electric drive to smaller machines....not that you'll listen.

The Lunar Rover Vehicle had this same technology, and it's a lot smaller than this loader we're talking about. Again, 40 years ago. Lots of stuff from the space program was adapted to consumer and industrial applications.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/apollo_lrv.html

I don't see anything new about this technology at all, looking at Volvo's unveiling at ConExpo 3 years ago.

http://www.siteprepmag.com/Articles/Products/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000289910

...and this article's dated from 2007, since the one above is a parallel type system.

http://www.volvo.com/dealers/en-gb/vcegb/products/Innovations/concept_wheel_loader/introduction.htm

Is Deere just rebranding this machine of Volvo's now like it does with Liebherr and Bell products? The ad only says that it's "working carefully to bring it to market". Maybe LeTourneau is actually designing and building them, and that's why Deere is working with them on it.

You're right, I've never worked in a mine. I don't have to stick my head up a bull's a$$ to judge a steak either. That's why I qualified my statement with all other things being equal.

I'm not sure you're listening.

d9gdon said:
I am not a mining person.

I've worked out of a few though. You're also right about ulta large loaders being different than this loader, but I think you see what I meant about them

alco said:
When it comes down to it, all loaders have a pretty similar application when loading trucks...

As far as the Tournadozer, yeah I knew it was rubber tired and mechanical drive at first. I thought it had morphed into diesel electric drive with Wabco for some reason, but I was wrong. It's the first time ever.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I hope they overtake the market with it and make billions off it since they're an American manufactureer employing American people.

Now there's you something to quote.

There's still nothing new about it. It's like deja vu all over again, I said that in my first post.

alco · Apr 5, 2011

It's amazing how some people won't pull their heads out of the sand. Like I said repeatedly, the concept is not new, no one here is disputing that. But you seems to think that because it's electric, it's all the same technology as it was 50 years ago. I won't argue with you, you obviously know all there is to know about this. I mean, it's like cars, they haven't had any new technology in over 100 years....they still use round tires and run off gasoline....so it has to be the same....right?

Burnout · Apr 5, 2011

Actually no Brian it's not. VERY different technology I mean c'mon guy 100 yrs ago they didn't have cup holders. I believe your argument is invalid lol.

As for Don, I think you need to realize the three people your trying to argue against here in this thread... have all seen the 944 in person. The concept is not new, the application in which Deere has decided to use it, is kinda new. Maybe if someone fires that picture into photoshop and makes it a 988E you'll simmer down a bit eh chief?

CEwriter · Apr 5, 2011

Nice video, Burnout.

Tigerotor - The difference between parallel and series electric drives will, indeed, be wasted on a lot of people, and they'll be inclined to think of the 944K as a follower. Many who stand to make some money by significantly reducing the operating cost of a 9-yard loader will find the 944K plenty exciting, even if the D7E used an electric motor before it.

Frankly, I don't think "first" has much to do with the 944K's significance on the market, other than it being the first drive system that is going to take a huge whack out of fuel, tire and drive train costs in big loaders.

Well put Farm Boy.

I know several of the contractors who are involved in Deere's customer groups, on the 944K and on other machines, and I get a pretty good indication from them that the risks of investing in new technologies from Deere are not that great.

d9gdon said:
I see that you are involved in a construction magazine and I'm guessing that as an advertiser Deere spends millions of dollars each year in magazines such as yours. I think that we'll all agree that their are some products such as loaders, dozers, and excavators in the market that are junk. I'm just trying to remember the last article I read that was written about them...not that you have a vested interest or anything.

If you know of some "junk" machines and can make that accusation stick, let me know. In 20 years of watching this industry, I've heard of virtually no design or engineering failures -- some weaker than others, susceptible to breakdown in extreme conditions, but no failures that anybody was willing to talk about.

Coincidentally, I don't write about failed contractors or quarries much, either. People learn better from and respond more positively to examples of things done right.

Oh and by the way, the Volvo wheel loader prototype at CONEXPO in 2008 was a parallel electric drive system. Different technology. And while they say their development of that loader is ongoing, Volvo has grown pretty quiet about it. Perhaps the recession has slowed their R&D schedule a bit.

L

buddy605 · Apr 5, 2011

I know it is off topic but burnout it must be getting busy there again sureway is advertising in local newspaper and suncor is here this week and ce writer I like the web page you must be living the dream.

Deereman · Apr 5, 2011

Is Deere just rebranding this machine of Volvo's now like it does with Liebherr and Bell products? The ad only says that it's "working carefully to bring it to market". Maybe LeTourneau is actually designing and building them, and that's why Deere is working with them on it.

This is beginging to get pointless. But for you to keep saying you want deere to make it with american workers is obviously wrong. I guess you don't know what is really involved in parting up with some one. Oh wait your used to the way cat does things. Nevermind.
But CE I am learning about batterys!!:cool2

Click to expand...

coalrulz · Apr 5, 2011

does any one know if the 944k is going to be A/C or D/C drive?

sawmilleng · Apr 16, 2011

Whats the difference between parallel and series electric drives?

CEwriter said:
The difference between parallel and series electric drives will, indeed, be wasted on a lot of people....Oh and by the way, the Volvo wheel loader prototype at CONEXPO in 2008 was a parallel electric drive system. L

CEwriter, I'm scratching my head about what you mean by parallel and series drives? I have a literal concept of parallel and series--for example, with hydraulic motors, a series drive is where you take the oil coming out of a motor and put it into a second motor. Of course, this concept doesn't work the same with wheel drives where you are trying to control wheel slip and the like.

Please explain!

Thanks,
Jon.

MKTEF · Apr 16, 2011

The volvo parallel has a electric engine in the powertrain. As simple as a electric engine connected between the converter and the gearbox.
Everything else is as usual, when extra power is needed electricity is put into the electric motor, and whoula you got 100 more hp.
When bracking the electric engine acts as a generator, charging the batteries and generating braking power too.

Series solution u got a generator on the engine and electric motors on the wheels or other places in the driveline. You transfer all the power via cables.
On road trucks there is a lot of paralell systems out there.
Especialy in busses that axcelerate and brake all day long. Charge when braking and let it out when axcelerating.

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