Dozers and operator cabs

CM1995 said:

:beatsme Maybe it's seeing all those Komatsu's being traded in on Cats.

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Stop it....:laugh ointlaugh ointlaugh :lmao :lmao :lmao

I'm gunna break somethin..

Wulf said:

Interesting... what do you base that on?

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Well, to put it simply, the operations that were running Komatsu's in a Tailings role have been buying Cat's instead of more Komatsu's. Syncrude used to have D85's, they replaced them with D7R's. They still have some D155's, but they have bought replacement D7R and D8R dozers....no Komatsu's.
Suncor had a fleet that consisted mainly of D85 and D155 Tailings dozers, but the latest dozers they bought were D8T's. I believe they also have some D7's.
Albian Sands has only D7 and D8 Tailings dozers.

That is what I based my comments on. In the past few years, there have been no Komatsu's purchased for Tailings duty, only Cat machines.

The reasons behind the purchase of Cat over Komatsu is that the operators complain almost non stop about the Komatsu machines and the mechanics are even worse. Suncor, which is a Komatsu stronghold of sorts, was having problems keeping theirs running long enough to get the job done. Syncrude is not far behind. We have a D375 that we use for ripping and large dozing jobs in Tailings that is averaging around 30 percent availability......and that is almost all idle time. Every time we try to put it to work, it breaks down. In the past 6 months, I can't remember it making an entire shift without going to the shop.

Hope that answers your questions.

Brian

Alco, I wouldn't dispute that Cat have a huge presence in the oilsands, they make excellent machinery and Finning applied lots of resources to that region, to some degree at the expense of business elsewhere in Western Canada.

I'm pretty sure that there were 8 new D85's delivered in the last half of 2006 to Suncor with tailings packages. I think CNRL are running new D375's and D155A-6's as well.

On your 30% dozer... in my experience any D375/D475 will reach and exceed its contractual availability targets in the high 90%'s for its productive life whatever application its in... I didn't know they were used in tailings though!... your 30% is it a new machine or an older high hour/due for a rebuild?

Enclosed cabs

I remember running an enclosed dozer on a superfund site in full facemask and full poly coated tyvek suits in the dog days of summer and th A/C did not work. So I would have loved to have an open cab.

dozerdewees said:

I remember running an enclosed dozer on a superfund site in full facemask and full poly coated tyvek suits in the dog days of summer and th A/C did not work. So I would have loved to have an open cab.

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Welcome to HEF Dozerdewees! :drinkup

What kind of work required the use of that kind of protective wear?

enclosed cabs

Countryboy said:

Welcome to HEF Dozerdewees! :drinkup

What kind of work required the use of that kind of protective wear?

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we were cleaning up a site that maufactured DDT which was a pesticide that was banned by the government.We wore full face mask respirators with rubber boots rubber gloves and polycoated jumpsuits.It was like wearing a rainsuit.Most of the time I was in the excavator also with no A/C outside Temp was around 98 degrees and if your an operator you know what it must have felt like in the cab. I lost several pounds that year. LOL

The news of the D85's for Suncor is new to me. As far as I knew the last new machines they got were the D8T's earlier last year. I will check into that. I know the people who do the equipment buying at Suncor said it was unlikely you would see more Komatsu Tailings machines there again, but that was a while agoand things change.

Our 375 is not a Tailings dozer, it is used to prep and rip areas for Tailings cells before we build them. It is an older...but low operating hour machine. As I said it's operating hours are very low, but it has a lot of idle time on it. A fairly close guess would be about 5000 operating hours and 40,000 idle hours. It has been rebuilt and no matter what they do to it, it never stays running for a full shift. It has less than 500 hours on it since it was stripped to the frame and the powertrain was completely rebuilt. The rebuilt engine failed twice so far, the transmission failed once, and we lost a final drive less than 20 hours after the rebuild. Granted, it may be past it's "productive life", but that seems to be about 2500 hours so hardly worth mentioning. I know the 475 they have in the mine is even worse than our 375. The problem is they can't keep it running long enough to hour it out so they can get rid of it. Both of these machines have been this way since fairly early in their life. To give you an idea, they are both the same age....about 10 years. They have less hours on them than our older D10's and 11's that are only 5 years old. That should give you an idea how hard they are to keep running. They seem to be plagued by the Komatsu curse. They run fine when they are new, but get a few hours on them and they fall apart. The mine had a newer 375 on rental....I don't know the hours on the machine.........it was getting about 60 percent according to the Mine Operations Leader.

I find it hard to believe CNRL has new 375's and 155's running since they are not running yet. They are still under construction and won't be up and running for about 2 years.

The only Komatsu machines that we seem to be buying are loaders. We are already having troubles with a few of the machines that are getting some hours on them. The newer ones still seem to be doing ok. Syncrude hasn't bought any new Komatsu dozers since the opening of the Aurora mine, and those were the D155 Tailings machines.

Suncor is still buying Komatsu machines for in the mine, but the Tailings machines are news to me. A couple of contractors have been buying Komatsu since they need the equipment now and can't wait two years for Cats.

Brian

What makes me not believe any of this sort of thing is, I just don't see any 375's or 475's for sale at scrap price. They command the same top dollar as the CAT's do.
Its kinda like the old high track vs oval track D8' s and D9 arguement.
I see the price of 30 plus year old machines that are pretty much worn out metal fatigued, advertized at probably the same price they could have been bought new for. If it is such an unpopular machine then why the high price?

Alco pretty much summed it up, the reason for Komatsu's not holding up.
Operators complaining about them, and mechanics not wanting to work on them. Then it must be an anti komatsu deal that makes sure they don't stay in operation. So funny last place I worked everyone wanted to operate the komatsu dozers. I would like to see a real mining study.

So why if the CAT product is so great, don't they make a nice big mining dozer? Maybe they are afraid if they do, they will be laughed at, because it will have to be an oval track design. They just can't go too much bigger with that high track design, it will be way outa proportion, and will need elevators for sure.

Alco pretty much summed it up, the reason for Komatsu's not holding up.
Operators complaining about them, and mechanics not wanting to work on them. Then it must be an anti komatsu deal that makes sure they don't stay in operation.

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You must be on to something, those anti Komatsu agents are at it again. I thought they were all wiped out after the great oval vs high-track war.:crazy

So why if the CAT product is so great, don't they make a nice big mining dozer? Maybe they are afraid if they do, they will be laughed at, because it will have to be an oval track design. They just can't go too much bigger with that high track design, it will be way outa proportion, and will need elevators for sure.

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:beatsme Umm D11R carry dozer?:deadhorse

D11 is a toy. I'm talking 575 size and larger. Gosh there are huge mining excavators. What is wrong can't anyone build a compariable dozer?
Cat has absolutly nothing to compair to the Komatsu 575, it will push a fully loaded D11 underpower backwards with out breaking a sweat.

Dozer575 said:

D11 is a toy. I'm talking 575 size and larger. Gosh there are huge mining excavators. What is wrong can't anyone build a compariable dozer?
Cat has absolutly nothing to compair to the Komatsu 575, it will push a fully loaded D11 underpower backwards with out breaking a sweat.

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There is one reason no one has stepped up to the plate: cost. First, there's only two big names in big dozers to begin with: Cat and Komatsu (listed alphabetically). When a manufacturer sells forty frames in a ten-year period, which is approximately what the D575 has sold, there's really no incentive for another one to join in unless it is confident it can push the other one out entirely. The costs to develop a D575-sized "D12" would be astronomical -- economies of scale (and just doubling the size on everything) might not hold up perfectly. Furthermore, Cat won't take the financial risk of selling, what, four machines a year -- maximum -- to offset what would probably be a several-million dollar product introduction.

For another manufacturer (except one) to develop such a large dozer is even more preposturous. No one has large-dozer experience (Liebherr is just getting a D9-sized machine), and to start from scratch, well, probably not likely. The company I could envision doing one or two large dozers would be LeTourneau -- they already make the largest wheel loader, so they have experience in huge machines. The issue is, even they don't have any tracked models, and the UC is going to be most likely the biggest design headache.

Ultimately, I just don't see it happening. The D575 is a pretty specialized dozer; you don't see it on road construction projects or pulling scrapers. I doubt Cat would take the risk (and I doubt its beloved shareholders would allow it to take the risk) to build a machine that might or might not sell and only in a handful per year.

Dozer575 said:

D11 is a toy. I'm talking 575 size and larger. Gosh there are huge mining excavators. What is wrong can't anyone build a compariable dozer?
Cat has absolutly nothing to compair to the Komatsu 575, it will push a fully loaded D11 underpower backwards with out breaking a sweat.

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If you took the Cat D-11's sold in the last year and lined them up against all the 575's ever made, the komatsu would not have a chance. The market for that size dozer is not there, nor is the reliability.

I know you like Komatsu, but to argue with people who have firsthand knowledge of the machines is foolish.
How many pieces of equipment have you ever owned?
My latest Komatsu experience is a machine down for weeks awaiting parts.
Longest wait for Cat parts I can recall was 2 days.
When you are paying the bills, and you are responsible for the production to make the money that pays those bils, then you will look at it with more facts and less emotion.
The proven fact is that Cat dozers are FAR more reliable than the Komatsu counterparts.

The people here who contribute are very knowlegable about these things.
You are right, Alco did sum it up, but you did not read it very carefully, so I will paste it here again:

Quote: "It has been rebuilt and no matter what they do to it, it never stays running for a full shift. It has less than 500 hours on it since it was stripped to the frame and the powertrain was completely rebuilt. The rebuilt engine failed twice so far, the transmission failed once, and we lost a final drive less than 20 hours after the rebuild. "

It would pay dividends for you to check around before blindly following your emotional love for the Komatsu brand.
They do build some good products, and their excavators in particular are decent machines, but it still comes down to support. If you need it to be available, the smarter choice is a Cat.

I'll get down off of the box now :soapbox

Hey its the computer age. The design work is nothin nowdays.

I think Cat knows if they were to build a D12 or 13 hi drive, it would take twice the hp that the 575 has to do the same thing. ie that scale thing you mentioned. The losses of that final drive and rear idler tugawar would climb exponentially and thats saying nothing about the curved rail wear rates as well. So you have a point there. That is why I had said they would have to resort to the same undercarriage they so happily supply on their smaller offerings of dozers. It is nice they see the light there. Too bad Buster Peterson isn't around to show them how to build a dozer again.

Dozer575 said:

The design work is nothin nowdays.

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Sorry. I beg to differ. Design engineers may not know everything, and the veterans may be retiring, but this point is downright wrong. I've sat in the design seat, and it is by far the last thing from nothing you'd expect. And my mistakes were coming from a person who knows the equipment!

Dozer575 said:

Hey its the computer age. The design work is nothin nowdays.

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Is this guy for real? :crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy :crazy

This is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you realize that all you are getting is dirty and the pig is enjoying it!

Is this guy for real?

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No. I don't believe he is. :stirthepot :deadhorse If you guys want to play, feel free, but this is one of those posters who is here to create more heat, rather than shed more light, on the subject.

Dozer575 said:

Hey its the computer age. The design work is nothin nowdays.

I think Cat knows if they were to build a D12 or 13 hi drive, it would take twice the hp that the 575 has to do the same thing. ie that scale thing you mentioned. The losses of that final drive and rear idler tugawar would climb exponentially and thats saying nothing about the curved rail wear rates as well. So you have a point there. That is why I had said they would have to resort to the same undercarriage they so happily supply on their smaller offerings of dozers. It is nice they see the light there. Too bad Buster Peterson isn't around to show them how to build a dozer again.

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Hi Komatsu 575,

What do you know about design, heavy machines and what´s good or bad?
I´m sitting behind a computer designing machines every day, I know what computers are capable of designwise nowadays.
On the computer screen in a virtual environmet you can e.g. place your self in the seat of a dozer, looking out of the windows in all directions, and if something is obstructing the view you go ahead and make e.g. some window larger or the hood more sloping. (not that I´m designing dozers..)

I´ve also driven several Cat machines over the years, the best machines I have tried. Komatsu´not all bad, but in dozers the reputation is clearly on the Cat side.

Komatsu dozers are fine machines to operate when new, but the won´t last as long, everybody around is telling the same thing about that, you´re constantly running aganist the wind man......

digger242j said:

No. I don't believe he is. :stirthepot :deadhorse If you guys want to play, feel free, but this is one of those posters who is here to create more heat, rather than shed more light, on the subject.

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And if the trend continues, that heat will be extinguished permanently. Consider yourself warned. CM1995, I believe you are correct and the policy here does not tolerate such games.

D8Bob?????????????????????????

Hi, Folks.
I don't know if this 'Kummagutsa'D575 really is D8Bob or not and I don't care. As to whether he is real or not, for sure, he IS real. What he is not is open-minded or sincere in his efforts to bring out the truth. He is extremely selective about which parts of which posts he chooses to respond to and seems to be very adept at taking things out of context.

I have absolutely no doubt that his intentions for this site have nothing to with harmony or the truthful dessemination of information but rather involve what is commonly known around my part of the world as 'stirring'.

He has not put forward one rational argument to back up his claims. WHY???? Could it be because he CAN'T??????? Because there is no such information????????????

Short of banning him, which is a move that only the moderator can make, I would suggest that all we can do to alleviate or eliminate any effects his efforts might have here is to TOTALLY ignore him. I for one won't be responding to any more of his posts. What the rest of you choose to do is up to each individual.

:iagree