It may go by another name depending on location, but very useful for finishing, stripping and bulking loose or wet ground.
(The one full of dirt on the machine)
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why so few around?
- Thread starter Hitachi350Man
- Start date
It may go by another name depending on location, but very useful for finishing, stripping and bulking loose or wet ground.
(The one full of dirt on the machine)
Burnout
Senior Member
Who says the Scraper is going away? Come up here..... there are more than a few running around. I don't mean to harp on you guys... or be a jerk but why are you comparing a track loader to excavators? That would be like comparing a shovel to a digital camera... they perform different tasks.
Track loaders excel in loading trucks in wet conditions... will dig into natural ground a wheeled machine can't. They backfill like a mother, then finish beautifully. They perform many tasts incredibly well with the right operator. Most people don't like them because they ride rough... You know what? Put the bucket on the ground, they ride as rough as you can level out ground.
As some of you know, I have spent 3 or 4 hours cruisin around in 973's. I don't want to run anything else, I love the 73. It's fast, nimble and has a ton of power. I will squeeze her into any spot you need me in.
They are regional though, as for the guy in BC... why don't you see track loaders there? Well... why don't you see the buggies there either? Rock my friend. The ground you deal with has a great influence on what your going to use to move dirt.
The reason they are compairing a track loader to excavators is excavators are replacing track loader in a large region. Excavtors are more diverse.
Here in the midwest, there is very few track loader. I have four 953's now and I think I have the most in my area. The only reason I have them, they where cheap to buy. I purchased the 953C new, but the other three together cost less than what a good D6D dozer will bring. I have one on different farms to do work, don't have to haul them around.
Track loaders have a place but a Track loader will not move in muddy conditions. That is one reason excavators are used, next is cost per yard loaded, less track wear. I have quick couplers and can change betwwen a roller, bucket, and other attachments in a few minutes. Except for carring dirt a long distance there is nothing an excavator will not do faster and cheaper than a track loader. Excavators are just a good all aront tool. Can load trucks, lay pipe, do demo work, remove trees, dig ditches, even in mud, just to name a few things.
I have 4in1 bucket on my Case 455, and would not be without it. Here in Australia almost all front end loader type machines other than large wheel loaders have 4in1 buckets.
A 4in1 bucket adds so much more versatility to tasks you can do on a track loader.
There are times when I find it easier to load from a stockpile of irregular material like trees or demolition material, with a digging bucket on the excavator, (I don't have a grab or a thumb) than try and drag and clamp with the 4in1. Picking up the last little bit of whatever, the 4in1 is best every time.
A 4in1 bucket adds so much more versatility to tasks you can do on a track loader.
There are times when I find it easier to load from a stockpile of irregular material like trees or demolition material, with a digging bucket on the excavator, (I don't have a grab or a thumb) than try and drag and clamp with the 4in1. Picking up the last little bit of whatever, the 4in1 is best every time.
Burnout
Senior Member
Can't move in mud eh? Funny.... I work in mud 80% of the time and she moves around just fine. And take into account I'm in the heaviest track loader currently being produced, and she's not an LGP unit. Around here... we backfill with track loaders, grade with them, carry material, load trucks, push up piles, and for those sick minded individuals that feel the need to put a quick attach on their machine... they have forks for unloading trucks.
The 973 I run loads an average tandem in 2 1/2 buckets.... get my dirt nice and close and I can destroy most hoes in loading trucks, not because of skill, but because I can go in, crowd up a nice bucket and spin a turn right into that truck. For general earthmoving... yeah an excavator will do a lot of things better than a TL. But, you get into the sewer and water game, and track loaders start coming in pretty handy.
And for my final reason track loaders are the King of Earthmoving.... track loader guys get all the women. That is all.
I would like to see you move with a track loader with the conditions I work in. If the loader didn't sink completely out of sight, you would be high centered on the belly pans. Hard to do any thing when your stuck???
That is why an excavator is better.
Try digging a trench for a sewer pipe with an track loader, dig a ditch with standing water. Load out in bottomless mud back fill and compact a trench, excavators are better. Try back filling compacking a sewer trench with a track loader and you end up moving to much material THAT WASTE MONEY
I have track loader but only because I bought them cheap. Give me an excavator any day
By the way Women real like EXCAVATOR OPERATORS.
dynahoescott
Well-Known Member
As usual, my boy burnout is correct. Crawler loaders are vastly under appreciated and criminally neglected on the jobsites now for a decade or so now, I am a hoe man no doubt about it, but so many times on the job a crawler loader would be the premium piece of iron for the job by FAR, I will go as far as saying a crawler loader with a q/c 6 way blade would do any job a comparable dozer will plus demolish, load, sort, strip black top (no machine outside a miller can strip and load black top like a crawler loader) grind wood, carry pipe and manholes and thats just to start. Look at skid steers, they do just about anything with the proper attachment and there is no reason you cant hang even more powerful attachments on a track loader. The problem here is ignorance, we run these things every day out in the field and we see the score, but you get office staff or salesman on the job and they dont understand really that much and the cat factory enjoys selling hoes too much to educate people on the capabilities of crawler loaders. If these factory reps ever got wise enough to market crawler loaders like large skid steers they would sell like crazy, and would probably take 20% market away from hoes, 25% market from dozers and 50% market from wheel loaders. Yes I know they are hard on undercarriages but you have to train people on the right method of operation.:drinkup
You make some good points dynahoescott and I think it is a shame that crawler loaders are not only being asked for less on jobs, but there are fewer manufacturers making them now, and a million excavators to choose from when considering a purchase.
When I started in earth-moving it was my love for crawler loaders that got me into it, however since getting my first excavator in 1985 I have seen many benefits in using an excavator over a track loader in a lot of circumstances, not to say that a track loader is no longer useful as I still have one and have no intention of selling it, but as some of the other posters have pointed out there are times when a track loader is not the right machine for a job and sometimes incapable of doing a job. I agree that there are tasks that a track loader will do much better than an excavator, but if I had to have only one machine, it would be an excavator as they are much more versatile.
Since you mentioned skid steers, I would like to make the comment that manufacturers and salesmen have made out that a tracked skid steer will take the place of track loaders. Although they are quite capable, there is no comparison between a CTL and a track loader of the same HP, although from a clients uneducated perspective they are the same thing and "they go so much faster". Hopefully no client will think a CTL is comparable to a 973.
When I started in earth-moving it was my love for crawler loaders that got me into it, however since getting my first excavator in 1985 I have seen many benefits in using an excavator over a track loader in a lot of circumstances, not to say that a track loader is no longer useful as I still have one and have no intention of selling it, but as some of the other posters have pointed out there are times when a track loader is not the right machine for a job and sometimes incapable of doing a job. I agree that there are tasks that a track loader will do much better than an excavator, but if I had to have only one machine, it would be an excavator as they are much more versatile.
Since you mentioned skid steers, I would like to make the comment that manufacturers and salesmen have made out that a tracked skid steer will take the place of track loaders. Although they are quite capable, there is no comparison between a CTL and a track loader of the same HP, although from a clients uneducated perspective they are the same thing and "they go so much faster". Hopefully no client will think a CTL is comparable to a 973.
dynahoescott
Well-Known Member
Yes Baz, you are correct in the one area that hoes are better than track loaders on SOME aspects of a particuler jobs. And sometimes crawler loaders are the pinnacle of equipment utilization, its like burnout said you need a proficient operator on a track loader BUT when you have one, watch out, things will really get moving. And start comparing a track loader to a wheelloader and forget about it, the only time a wheel loader is preferable to a crawler is either backfilling trenches on blacktop or snow plowing, other than that a crawler wins hands down. Also on the subject of ctl`s once they start making steel tracks (not rubber) or at least interchagable then you will see a very capable machine with real earthmoving abilities in a smaller package. I think that would be the machine to have in backyards and tight developments. (also known as north jersey
The point I was trying to make with the CTLs is that there is no substitution for the mass and weight of a proper track loader. The current model Case 450 is a CTL and has a slightly more powerful motor than a Case 455C, but there is no way that a 450 is going to dig like a 455, even if it did have the power to the ground it is going to lift the machine up instead of breaking out material.
They are miles ahead of wheeled skid steer, but just as far behind a track loader, and Case has not made the 455 since 91. They were a great machine.
They are miles ahead of wheeled skid steer, but just as far behind a track loader, and Case has not made the 455 since 91. They were a great machine.
Burnout
Senior Member
RKO.... you have been around here awhile, and I know you are an intelligent guy, but that last post to be honest was not up to your usual standards. Your point of being in mud so soft I'm going to sink down to the belly pan is pointless. With material that soft.. what are you doing with it? Are you loading it out? Because at that point any truck is going to sink as well. Are you packing it? I think not. Your rifling it over right? Ahhh in that case, I can just push it up with the track loader into a pile. I have done it before....I have also buried a 973C to the belly pan. Why? Someone said it was too soft but there wasn't a hoe around so... I did my best.
Once again you missed the boat on what a track loader will do. Why do you insist on digging a trench with a track loader? Each machine has a purpose, bulldozers generally don't load trucks, excavators don't generally push dirt up, or spread.. yada yada. Wheel Loaders don't scrape up 32yds of dirt and carry it 1000ft to the fill and spread it. Grader's don't get loaded by an excavator and carry dirt to a fill. So why insist on comparing a track loader to an excavator for digging a trench?
Ok... Backfill now your in my ball park. So your saying using a track loader to backfill sewer and water ditch moves too much dirt and wastes money? Hmmm well thats exactly what I do. If you've watched the videos or seen the countless thousands of photo's I have posted here then you'd see that. Yes a track loader will move a lot of dirt to backfill a small trench, but it does it in a hurry. A track loader and vibratory compactor can do a lot of work in a day, what else are you going to do it with? a Hoe and a hoe pack? Well yeah one machine potentially costs less to run, but how uniform is your compaction? What happens when your running multiple lines in with services and you don't have uniform compaction? Your road settles.
I am not saying the track loader is the be all end all of heavy equipment. It has a purpose, as does an excavator, tractor backhoe, wheel loader, scraper, grader, scrader, rock truck and packer.
The CTL subject, CTL's have a time and place. Landscaping is one of their niche's. a CTL is a great machine, very useful. But the largest cat CTL would still be destroyed by a decent track loader when it comes to digging into a hard bank, pushing up a pile... or pushing in general. Ever loaded a truck with a CTL? Man those boards look awful high don't they?
It comes down to the operator. I like to think I am pretty good on a track loader. I was a hoe operator first, I was hesitant to ever jump in a TL but I did it and I am glad I did. They are a machine that is under appreciated as Scott said. They chew up undercarriages yes, but they can do some serious work if you let them.
Baz also made a great point... "If I only had one machine". Yeah the excavator would be your machine. Why? It's versatile. You can dig a trench, basement, cellar, you can grade, strip land, load trucks, knock down trees, pull out concrete. You can do all that. A track loader can do all those things as well... maybe not as efficiently at some of them. If you really wanted to do all that with more efficiency hell buy yourself a backhoe.
Once again you missed the boat on what a track loader will do. Why do you insist on digging a trench with a track loader? Each machine has a purpose, bulldozers generally don't load trucks, excavators don't generally push dirt up, or spread.. yada yada. Wheel Loaders don't scrape up 32yds of dirt and carry it 1000ft to the fill and spread it. Grader's don't get loaded by an excavator and carry dirt to a fill. So why insist on comparing a track loader to an excavator for digging a trench?
Ok... Backfill now your in my ball park. So your saying using a track loader to backfill sewer and water ditch moves too much dirt and wastes money? Hmmm well thats exactly what I do. If you've watched the videos or seen the countless thousands of photo's I have posted here then you'd see that. Yes a track loader will move a lot of dirt to backfill a small trench, but it does it in a hurry. A track loader and vibratory compactor can do a lot of work in a day, what else are you going to do it with? a Hoe and a hoe pack? Well yeah one machine potentially costs less to run, but how uniform is your compaction? What happens when your running multiple lines in with services and you don't have uniform compaction? Your road settles.
I am not saying the track loader is the be all end all of heavy equipment. It has a purpose, as does an excavator, tractor backhoe, wheel loader, scraper, grader, scrader, rock truck and packer.
The CTL subject, CTL's have a time and place. Landscaping is one of their niche's. a CTL is a great machine, very useful. But the largest cat CTL would still be destroyed by a decent track loader when it comes to digging into a hard bank, pushing up a pile... or pushing in general. Ever loaded a truck with a CTL? Man those boards look awful high don't they?
It comes down to the operator. I like to think I am pretty good on a track loader. I was a hoe operator first, I was hesitant to ever jump in a TL but I did it and I am glad I did. They are a machine that is under appreciated as Scott said. They chew up undercarriages yes, but they can do some serious work if you let them.
Baz also made a great point... "If I only had one machine". Yeah the excavator would be your machine. Why? It's versatile. You can dig a trench, basement, cellar, you can grade, strip land, load trucks, knock down trees, pull out concrete. You can do all that. A track loader can do all those things as well... maybe not as efficiently at some of them. If you really wanted to do all that with more efficiency hell buy yourself a backhoe.
I totally hear what you are saying Burnout and I am loving your passion for TLs coming out in this thread. I was actually thinking today about some of the things I have managed to do with my TL that were well beyond the machine's normal job description. I must admit though that some of these were more due to the fact that I was on site with the TL at the time and had little or no alternative so I had to be creative. There have been plenty of times where I have started a job with the TL and had to bring in the excavator to finish, and it has done it easy when I was down to the undercarriage and making a mess with the TL. I am not sure how the 973 handles it, but I have had mud in tracks that has been binding so bad I have had to use full throttle just to keep moving even after you shovel the tracks. I hate every minute of days like that and would much prefer to be in the excavator where the bucket goes in and out regardless of the conditions. I recently did a job where due to the circumstances did the cut and fill with the excavator and then the cleanup with the TL after a LOT of rain. Definitely would have been easier and faster if had used the TL for the cut and excavator for the muddy cleanup.
I agree with you on the CTL being great in those lighter applications, the thing is you don't see any proper track loaders offered as a machine to do heavy work in the same type of contracts now, (a 450, 931 class) whereas you can get excavators going up in 1 ton increments from 1 ton to 30 ton
I agree with you on the CTL being great in those lighter applications, the thing is you don't see any proper track loaders offered as a machine to do heavy work in the same type of contracts now, (a 450, 931 class) whereas you can get excavators going up in 1 ton increments from 1 ton to 30 ton
buckfever
Senior Member
i agree with you guys to a point. I learned on a track loader and put a lot of hours on it. so when it came time to buy an excavator production saw a big jump. we do manly resedential and manisapol work. you cann't dig a foundation with a tl as fast as you can with and excavator. but i will agree that there is no more vesitile machine. utility work with a tl is top notch. carry in the backfill material (stone or dust) and push the dirt on top. back drag and your done. On the topic of loading trucks cann't see a comparable ex next to a tl and the tl keep up. my ex will turn 90 degrees faster then your 73 will.
Burnout
A lot of the jobs/dirt I get into needs the dirt to be moved to dry out. The water level so high that there is no other way to dry it out, or it rains to much and never dries out. Get it dried out and lay it back down, compact it and you are good to go. Another problem is some of the dirt, once you Move it it turns bad on you. You can drive on it and work on top of it until you disturb it and then you are in trouble. A track loader turning to load a truck will get you in trouble fast, were an excavator can just seat and not have to turn the tracks to load. Next rails are getting high price to replace. Turning all day with a track loader wears rails fast. Yes excavators rails wear but from the records I have I can move/load more dirt per dollar of rail wear with an excavator, along with being faster and easier on the truck with an excavator. With the thumb on the excavator I can place large chunks in the bed and not bend the box or have the piece get jambed in the box. It's a lot harder to do that with a track loader.
I don't and never will dig a trench with a track loader. You were saying a track loader is better for back filling/compacting a trench. I dig All trenches, lay beading material, lay the pipe and pull the trench box with one excavator. I back fill and compact with another excavator. I very seldom have a track loader on a job site. The only time I have a track loader on a site is if I'm short a wheel loader to fill the trench box.
Every piece of equipment has it's place but I want every piece of equipment to earn it's keep. Excavators for the dollar they cost to buy and maintain earn me the most every year. Along with being the most diversified piece of equipment.
A lot of the jobs/dirt I get into needs the dirt to be moved to dry out. The water level so high that there is no other way to dry it out, or it rains to much and never dries out. Get it dried out and lay it back down, compact it and you are good to go. Another problem is some of the dirt, once you Move it it turns bad on you. You can drive on it and work on top of it until you disturb it and then you are in trouble. A track loader turning to load a truck will get you in trouble fast, were an excavator can just seat and not have to turn the tracks to load. Next rails are getting high price to replace. Turning all day with a track loader wears rails fast. Yes excavators rails wear but from the records I have I can move/load more dirt per dollar of rail wear with an excavator, along with being faster and easier on the truck with an excavator. With the thumb on the excavator I can place large chunks in the bed and not bend the box or have the piece get jambed in the box. It's a lot harder to do that with a track loader.
I don't and never will dig a trench with a track loader. You were saying a track loader is better for back filling/compacting a trench. I dig All trenches, lay beading material, lay the pipe and pull the trench box with one excavator. I back fill and compact with another excavator. I very seldom have a track loader on a job site. The only time I have a track loader on a site is if I'm short a wheel loader to fill the trench box.
Every piece of equipment has it's place but I want every piece of equipment to earn it's keep. Excavators for the dollar they cost to buy and maintain earn me the most every year. Along with being the most diversified piece of equipment.
245dlc
Senior Member
I don't understand why you guys are having a pissing contest over two or three types of machines that each have different purposes. The kind of work that Alex does and the most of the soil conditions he works in permit the use of a large track loader and actually require a large track loader. I know in the area I work in when it comes to putting in sewer and water for housing developments the track loader is an essential piece of equipment as our wet ground conditions don't permit the use of a wheel loader for moving around pipe, manholes, or bedding and backfill materials. Different job site conditions, quantity of work, type of work all dictate what types of equipment can be used and what the contractor/s have in they're fleets and budgets also dictate what can be used on the job. And in the past thirty years a lot of big manufacturers like Dresser, Allis Chalmers/Fiat Allis that made track loaders have ceased to exist or have been bought out and various lines discontinued. Plus another big factor is the defunct big manufacturers also had a hard time competing with Caterpillar, John Deere, and Liebherr. Komatsu was the only outfit other than Cat, Deere/Liebherr to have made a rear engined track loader. I know International/Dresser tried but never really pushed it onto the market.
Burnout
Senior Member
As I stated earlier... I am not arguing the fact that an excavator is a great piece of iron. My major malfunction with this thread is people expecting tracl loaders to do things they aren't made to do.
If I may ask about your water/sewer work, or trench work... what scale are you workin on? I know this is where I come off sounding like a jerk but I don't think you and I are on the same page. As for your drying dirt problems.... the site we just finished was beyond your worst nightmare. Silty material coming out of the ground at 30+ percent moisture.. optimum of 16% and we're generating dirt at an excessive rate. Lets just dry it out right? Well we had no room to spread it. By tossing in wet lifts we literally doubled the area we had to dry it if you get my drift.
Trench boxes? Yeah we don't use those much up here... why? Speed. Hard to drag a box 25ft deep thats gonna allow you to lower in pipe with a PC600. I'll load up some pics for ya... you'll see why the 973 is our ace in the hole when it comes to backfill.
If I may ask about your water/sewer work, or trench work... what scale are you workin on? I know this is where I come off sounding like a jerk but I don't think you and I are on the same page. As for your drying dirt problems.... the site we just finished was beyond your worst nightmare. Silty material coming out of the ground at 30+ percent moisture.. optimum of 16% and we're generating dirt at an excessive rate. Lets just dry it out right? Well we had no room to spread it. By tossing in wet lifts we literally doubled the area we had to dry it if you get my drift.
Trench boxes? Yeah we don't use those much up here... why? Speed. Hard to drag a box 25ft deep thats gonna allow you to lower in pipe with a PC600. I'll load up some pics for ya... you'll see why the 973 is our ace in the hole when it comes to backfill.
Lee-online
Senior Member
MD, PA and NY are where the most TL are sold each year, world wide. I see them use in all kinds of job but mainly for clearing a lot to build a house, grade the lot and dig the basement then load the trucks if needed. One operator and one machine will do all the dirt work.
I was talking about this very issue the other day and was wondering if the track loader was kindof dieing off. My thought is this: If you said I could make a living with only three pieces of equipment (not including a dump truck) I would by a trackhoe, dozer with 6 way blade and a compact track loader with attachments. Also would get a root rake for the dozer and a hydraulic thumb for the trackhoe. I think that is what the trackhoe crowd is getting at, it does so many things pretty well and if you had limited money to buy equipment one would stay busier with a trackhoe than a loader. By the way I have a friend with a loader that I know would strongly disagree with me. But I think the market has spoken pretty loudly atleast in my area and the market votes for the trackhoe.