Grader Joysticks V Lever Control

Ah, so, now it becomes clear, that it is the computer geeks foisting this language upon us. "Requests"

Yes you are of another world for sure using that language.

I will always select, choose, command.

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I think that's just a matter of semantics. "A rose by any other name..." (Of course, Shakespere could've said the same thing about an onion.)

With the swift advances in the technology today, I'd say lot of this new stuff will be junk or obsolete before long. Just like the computers here at the desk.

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I am curious about how this will play out, and perhaps merbston23 could make an informed comment. How much parts support will the factory give to today's cutting edge technology as it becomes outdated? I think it was surfer joe that commented some time ago that in 50 years, we're likely to see more 100 year old equipment still in operable condition than we are 50 year old equipment.

Language

Hello Digger242J,

It is not a simple matter of semantics.

In everday communications in the construction world, people use a common lingo, slang, usage to describe,demand, acquire, command, etc.

How would it sound, your telling a apprentice, scraper hand, request 3rd gear and get outa here. Or at the morning briefing. Okay men launch your graders !

The operators up here, would laugh you right off the job for such talk.

The old Cats , graders , scrapers ,etc, have a gear shift selector. What ya gonna call the new one ??

A gear requester ?? LOL The 14M shfting sequence, you could not feel the shifts. ONLY by looking at the digital readout did you know what gear you were in. Also, it might upshift or downshift when you don't want it to.

Say you want, 5th reverse and you miss the counts on pushing the button, and hit 6, because there is a lag in engagement,( did I hit the button or not ?)LOL it will go to 6 whether you want it or not.:

No wondering what gear you chose or selected, on the old consoles with the gear shift selector,and detents.

I see nothing but confusion, bad enough when they change the entire operating system, now they want to redefine the accepted language usage.

Do you remember the President saying under oath, what is the meaning of sex !

When a defendant lies in court it is called perjury !

When a lawyer lies in court it is called a misunderstanding !

I rest my case . LOL

Hi Merbston 23

I'm am well aware of the "growing pains" related to a new product. What desappointed me about the roll out of the M series was having some Caterpillar reps coming to our shop (we had just bought 5 x 14M) to assist in operator training and have them telling us about all the extensive testing that had been performed on these machines.....

I know right now that the Cat engineers are working hard to resolve the cold related issues but I remember that back in July I was told that the fan seal upgrade was coming soon....still no sign of it (was told next week now).

I just spent the last two days working on fan seals (third time this winter) and valve stacks that keeps blowing seals...again !

Was I expecting too much from a Cat machine ?

Well all this Philosophy crap a-side I couldn't disagree more with some of the post's. I think the problem lie's in old school Operator's that wont give up the ghost.

The M's have issues but when they work they out perform any other Grader.

I also disagree with the statement New will become obsolete or junk. Not in the Mining Industry that's for sure.

Iam surprised allot of people are Hating on the M's .. We all know the Bias towards CAT on these board's. This has extended to the M crash thread where people are jumping straight on a machine fault and not the Jockey.

Life Span , Longevity ?

Hello Haul Pak,

Just look back in history a bit.

See how the Dozer production stayed stable, till after the HI Sprockets came on, then the Alphabet just has about been depleted. We are up to the T series.

The Graders in the G series all had over a 20 year production run, the H series graders had a 10 year run till, cut short for this M series. The longevity of the production run, speaks about the reliability, durability.

There are different grader models also, that had short production runs.

The Cat 350 Excavator had a short life. The Cat 375 has disappeared. The 5000 series of shovels and excavtors are gone,out of production.

The other lines are just a blur in memory, wheel loaders and rubber tired backhoes. Many new numbers. Same with the number of New Mining trucks.

So with the advances in technology coming on so strong, I expect this M series to be replaced by a N series ??

The short production runs do not make for a long lived piece of equipment.

The Cat 966C loader is real popular and still working today, over 30 years later. Roughly 16,000 built in this country. A testimony to its technology and design.

The surveyors equipment is changing rapidly also. New stuff, is obsolete in just a few years.

Same with the integrated grader,dozer, excavator laser grade controls.

I see Volvo has the joysticks, yet I never hear of any problems they are having in Northern Latitudes.

So why is Caterpillar having such a tough time ?? :beatsme

Hello Northart: Some Valid point there

I can see the M's staying around for some time. CAT normally change Letter's with Major Update's. Allot of example's to back this and a few that don't.

D11 Tractor is a good example.

CAT have jumped the Grader's from Mechanical to Electrical Control's. Analog ~ Digital l_l

Digital Pulse Width Signal will be around for along time, This is computer talk, 01010101 ... 8 bit. Digital Control is the next 100 year's, Fiber optic's, ECM's etc all read the one's and Zero's. The only advancment's will be an ECM that can read 10 time's as much info using a 10th of the power .. I.E Home PC's becoming outdated .. Same technology as a new machine just Slower.

How can the wife talk on phone while you surf the net?? Thanks to Digital .. DAM it .. another $120 phone bill !!

Maybe CAT will Offer a Retro design with a Steering wheel and Electrical Joystick bank's? Maybe they should have taken this route before the full Joystick-Fly-by-wire design??

Problem Faced by CAT and other Major players: Back in the day they could build a Solid, Quality, Overbuilt machine, Overbuilt Linkage's and Simple Hydraulic's. Now Digital has taken over .. send 5 signal's down 3 wire's. The tree hugger's expect very little pollution from a 85 ltr engine ??

Maybe Iam being a Bit hypocritical as Ive only really had time on the 24M's.

Northart said:

I see Volvo has the joysticks, yet I never hear of any problems they are having in Northern Latitudes.

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Northart there is a reason why we don't have faults with theese systems.
The Volvo guy's installed a system that has been tested and developed for controlling rotortilt/steelwrist systems on excavators.(has existed for years)
Its basicaly a exc system times two.

Another thing to think about is that i've got electrohydraulical stearing in our Volvo 6300 from 1989!
So when speeking about Volvo, they have 20 years of expertice on this type of electronics.
Bugs and problems is sorted out years ago.

Last i have to say one thing:
Please don't let your frustration take over completely!
Merbston23 works at Cat, but i bet he cant solve all your problems!

Lets instead enjoy the fact that he is with us, and treat him as a member not a representative for Cat.

And welcome to the forum Merbston23!:drinkup
I hope you will find this site enjoying and please be patient with some of our "frustrated old school members"

Merbston23: Welcome to The Heavy Equipment Forums. Good to have you with us.

Northart said:

Hello Digger242J,

It is not a simple matter of semantics.

In everday communications in the construction world, people use a common lingo, slang, usage to describe,demand, acquire, command, etc.

....

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Look through a parts book and everything you see has a name that's been given to it by the engineers that designed the machine. Names for a similar part may differ from one manufacturer to the next. I don't see this as any different. They simply picked different verbs for the control inputs you make with your hands and feet. It should only be a problem if you talk to your machine, and now the new one doesn't understand you.

Do you talk to your machine? :cool2





(I know I do. )



.

MKTEF said:

Merbston23 works at Cat, but i bet he cant solve all your problems!

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Believe it it not, I don't have anything to do with MG, in fact I don't even know anyone that works on MG. Move to a 'small' town of 100k people and get to know every single person and what they do and we'll talk.

Second Cat just had 25,000 layoffs. Including white collar. Everyone has plenty to do and 'those that scream the loudest' get fixed first. And screaming is just a $$s issue. If your the *only* customer with a fan seal problem, I hate to tell you but you'll never see a resolution. It's how business works. Biggest warranty problems get fixed first, then second, then third, etc

treat him as a member not a representative for Cat.

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Which I am, nothing I say or post in anyway represents Caterpillar or what Caterpillar has to say. I just get to play with some toys long before any of you will. Anyone else hear Tier IV coming?

have them telling us about all the extensive testing that had been performed on these machines.....

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And there has been. I guarantee that 90% of the functions for 90% of the customers have been tested to death. No one ever makes a thread when everything is working perfectly....

Digital Pulse Width Signal

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Pulse width modulation is actually an analog signal. It's actually the best way to control an analog motor with a digital out.

How much parts support will the factory give to today's cutting edge technology as it becomes outdated

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I don't know a single person in supply chain, but when I toured Morton I was told that we just recently stopped supporting parts for machines built in the 40s. I also thought that was part of the Cat advantage. Cat Logistics is so good that other companies hire them to do logistics for their company. I don't know what is going to happen but I can guess that we'd have a few pissed off customers if we just stopped supporting a platform.

Home PC's becoming outdated .. Same technology as a new machine just Slower.

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Industrial PCs are completely different than what you can go buy at Best Buy. Cat's ECMs run at a blistering 40 Mhz and have a massive 2MB of ram. http://www.cat.com/cda/files/658096/7/A4M1&A4M3.8.29.07.pdf

The tree hugger's expect very little pollution from a 85 ltr engine ??

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85L? That's... massive. If you don't like EPA regulations, e-mail or write a letter to your Congressman. We don't make the law, we just follow it.

I see Volvo has the joysticks, yet I never hear of any problems they are having in Northern Latitudes.

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1) Look at where Sweden is relationship to Peoria in latitude.
2) I'm sure you've heard about more problems with GM's cars than you have with say Porsches. Is it because they have better reliability or maybe it's just because there are 100x more on the road? Again, no one ever complains when everything is working.

I will always select, choose, command.

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You will retire and be replaced.

Contractors that already have a skilled work force with particular brand, size , model, etc machine don't want to spend additional lengthy training time, on the operators , mechanics, etc.

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All of whom will retire or move along. And when that day comes, contractors want the best machine to replace every single one of them and to do it as fast as humanly possible. They also want to do it as cheaply as possible. Unskilled labor is always cheaper than skilled.. Who knows maybe we'll see "Halo 6: The motorgrader wars" training new workers at home.

I'll say one thing about Unions, we have an apprenticeship program that continually, trains new people into the industry, to meet the workforce supply, of skilled operators,needed. There is also a Journeyman upgrade, for cross training, in a particular skill where there is deemed to be a shortage of enough people.

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Not getting into my personal opinions of unions.... ever think that maybe Contractors are trying to find ways to get rid of them? There are a lot of 'right to work' states out there.

The 14M shfting sequence, you could not feel the shifts.

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That's a design feature. It's only the old school folks that want to 'feel' the shifts. Reminds me of the Star Trek: TNG episode where Scotty is complaining that he used to be able to tell how fast they were going by how the deck plates shook. It's hard on the body, 8 hours a day of 'feeling' the shifts would annoy the heck out of me. I'd rather sit in my Lazy-Boy 8 hours a day than my lawn mower. Now if you made my lawn mower feel like my lazy boy, I will mow for 8 hours with no problem.

miss the counts on pushing the button

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I guess engineers were assuming too much when they thought operators could count.

I don't know a single person in supply chain, but when I toured Morton I was told that we just recently stopped supporting parts for machines built in the 40s.

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That's why I'm asking. To me that's darn good, correction, phenominally good long term support.

Does that translate into being able to get a computer part for an M series grader in 2069? Somehow I doubt it. I think that's what Northart is getting at as well, and it remains to be seen just how much that long term support of today's products will be compromised.

I guess engineers were assuming too much when they thought operators could count.

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LOL! Today's operators, can count. The operator of tomorrow? It's you pointing out that they might not even have to be that smart...

merbston23 I also welcome you to Heavy Equipment Forums!!:drinkup

I'll preface my post by stating the only time I have in a grader of any type is as a kid, pulling levers and cranking the wheel making motor sounds in my throat. that being said, i have some comments directed at the technology debate that seems to be forming here.

The way I see it, technology is here to stay and you have two choices, either adapt to it or spend the rest of your days bitching and moaning about it. Computers are everywhere and generally make our lives easier and more productive. We are able to do bigger jobs with smaller machines through computers.

I've also wondered about how long one might be able to keep a machine running if the electronics were to fail outside of the production run. I have a feeling the free market will address this problem when it comes. Remanufactured computers are already available and I wouldn't be surprised to see a generic type computer to be introduced that can be specifically programmed to replace control modules in a variety of machines. If there's a market for it, someone will produce it.

Any company that expects to be in business for any length of time has to be progressive. I've learned in my business that pricing seems to be finite, there is only a certain amount of money customers are willing to pay to get a specific job done. The only opportunity I have to make more money is to squeeze more production into a given amount of time, and technology helps me do that. I wasn't around to enjoy cable operated machines, but I'm curious if those of you who were would want to return to them over hydraulic machines? That's technology. Or how about diesel vs. steam? That's technology. Open cabs (or even no cab) vs. enclosed cabs with heat and A/C? As merbston23 mentioned, you can either work with it or have it make you obsolete.

Skilled workforce ?

Hello Merbston23,

Drafting street people, or the uneducated ?, cheap labor , into the workforce.

That's where your losing it, they got to be trained to run $$$$$$$ EXPENSIVE equipment. The more sophisticated it gets the more training required.

Cheap labor is what the anti union and big busines wants. They want to trod upon the worker for their profits. In the same token I have no respect for the Executives given Parachute Bonus's for corporate failure ! Same old class warfare.

A skilled work force is much more productive than an unskilled work force.

The price of heavy equipment keeps creeping up ,up, and up. This new technology has not brought the price down ! Pretty soon you will price your self out of the market place.

Example the Air Force F-22 Raptor.(186) B2 Bomber(24). Hi tech modern marvels. Even Congress is balking about buying more F-22's.

People still need jobs. The notion of robotic heavy equipment machines replacing ???? Another subject.:bash Ha, maybe us displaced construction workers can be trained , as bankers and mortgage brokers. LOL At least we have as sense of responsibility and morals !

Fatigue ? Physical conditioning ? I think most operators are physically fit. Not bothered by working long hrs.6/10's, 7/10's and longer steady, The entire season. Yes construction work is tough , demanding. No place for,weaklings, wuss's ! Just like the NFL Football teams, the military, etc,etc, only the best survive.

Too much creature comfort leads to machine abuse, also.

Yes, creeping age will eventually force me out, retire permanently, just like everyone else. But I've been a productive member of society. Constructing many civil projects, that will be here, long after I'm gone.

Just remember , you too can be replaced. You have to build a reliable product, just like those, that came before you, that created the Legacy of Caterpillar. :usa

Very interesting discussion going on here. It's also very nice to see everyone is being civil. Hummm ..modern technology. I've operated many many graders over the years and the newer they were, the better I enjoyed operating them. Even the picture that I posted of the older John Deere grader that I operated for a couple of days...think I would trade that for a newer model? Bet your life I would. The newer the model the more comfortable/powerful/responsive they seem to be.

Having said that I'm not sure where the enjoyment of modern technology would end for me.
I've never tried a "M" series or any type of joystick controlled grader. I develop a "feel" for my machine very quickly, and this allows me to do my job with ease. I'm not sure if the same "feel" would be there with the joysticks and no steering wheel.
That make sense to anyone? I would love to try one someday and see if I'm wrong.
One thing I will add though..manufacturers are not going back to the days of old..its high tech..we either adapt or we stop operating..

Technology ?

Hello Steve,

Yes, I can't stop the progression of anything , taxes, war, computers ,etc.

I certainly can add my voice to those steering events, though.Perhaps nudge it in a direction more palatable. The notion that I am too ingrained, to accept,change is nonsense. I've witnessed many changes over the years.

The jist of my arguments is , the old sense of controlling by feel is gone. The sense of reliability is gone . And it is not me alone voicing these remarks.

Merbston23;

For a manufacturer , to disregard , complaints, dissatisfaction with their product, is just another reason for people, to switch brands or products. To belittle the influence an Operating Engineer, Master Mechanic, Foreman, Superintendant, the end users , has in influencing the purchase , shows a lack of knowledge of the industry. The owners certainly do listen to feedback !

Example, why are they putting coffee cup holders in the new equipment ?? LOL Ha, Fleet owners never get out in the field ??? :Banghead:bash LOL

One thing I see though, is that this electronic controlling, can be easily modified or changed , to make it more user friendly !

After all, it is just wires, hooked to joysticks,knobs,toggle switches,rollers, whatever.

Someone might even offer an aftermarket kit, of the traditional style controls. LOL Cab and all, complete , just switch ,plug in and go ! LOL ,

Just like the home computers , modified, with different software programs.

digger242j said:

Does that translate into being able to get a computer part for an M series grader in 2069? Somehow I doubt it. I think that's what Northart is getting at as well, and it remains to be seen just how much that long term support of today's products will be compromised.

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2069 is probably stretching it. Can you still get full parts support for stuff built in 1949? Now 2039? Probably. IBM still supports some of it's heavy iron from the 70s. With an emulator you can run DOS games, there's even an old ENIAC emulator. The Replacement ECMs you get in 2039 probably won't look like the A4, (just as retro parts aren't exactly like what the machine originally came with). But it'll run the vehicle.

Thanks for the informed reply. Now, hopefully we'll all be around to see whether you're right or not.

Northart said:

People still need jobs. The notion of robotic heavy equipment machines replacing ????

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Northart said:

One thing I see though, is that this electronic controlling, can be easily modified or changed , to make it more user friendly !

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Yep. And that will also make it easier to modify so that it can be controlled by the main computer back in the basement of company HQ, while the former operator works as a greeter at Walmart. :cool2

Displaced worker ?

Hello Digger242j,

Well if Pres Bush can ask for a job as a greeter at a Hardware store, I guess, I can also, LOL :drinkup

But those jobs a limited , what about the rest ?? :bash

Actually I 'd like to be a Banker or mortage writer in the new Bail out , Nationalization program. A secure job ?? LOL I could live with a $500,000 salary cap ! :usa

The rest can play with the remote controlled toys.

Well I finally got around to reading this whole thread. Very very intresting and some good points of view from several sides.

Personally I feel that the computer age is with us, had to shut the duck down a few times for a few minutes to reset the computer :Banghead.

I said it is with us, not that I liked it