Ether question

I understand that it's not good to use ether to get an engine going after you've been trying to get it started using the glow plugs. (On a D6c 10K with pre combustion chambers)

But....does it hurt anything if you leave the glow plugs cold and use ether to get it going?
Or is it a problem just because it has precombustion chambers instead of direct injection?

Most people don't preheat long enough ,the colder it is the longer you heat.
when it's cold I usually heat and crank till I get smoke then heat again.
The trouble with spring air is most people use way to much.
Bob

The hazard with glow plugs is that they are hot all the time and the ether fills the intake manifold and cylinder uniformly, so it can contact a hot glow plug when the intake valve is open and backfire the entire volume of the manifold, air intake hoses, air cleaner, etc and make quite a bang.

In real life practice I have exploded more than one intake tract on a gas engine spraying stuff into it and lived to tell the tale. I have also ethered quite a few diesels with glow plugs (old IDI Fords) and never had one backfire even a small amount.

The glow plugs cool off within seconds of releasing power to them, so if they are manually activated you really don't have to worry about the explosion aspect anyway.

Ether works by pre-igniting when the engine is coming up on compression. The problem is that it is not under any kind of control so it ignites with a bang whenever it feels like it. Usually when the piston is on the way up. Engines will run on ether if you give them enough but this is totally not the way to do it. Too hard on pistons and rings.

My theory is to use just enough ether that there is some kind of ignition in the cylinder going on. Then when the injector sprays it will find some hot air and ignite and run. The big strong diesel engine will not be harmed by the tiny pop going on in the cylinder.

Many people use too much ether to cover up a problem when the engine is not injecting sufficient fuel to start on its own. If the problem is simply that things are not quite warm enough, ether might be all it takes to get the fire lit, and then it can run on its own. If there are other problems you fix them first, not use ether on it.

WD 40 or other such lubricants work just as well as ether without drying out the cylinder bores.

I once did a little Mitsubishi in the woods with a dead glow plug system and cold, so I thought I would try the various things people have said over the years.

Gasoline = nothing
Brake clean = nothing
WD40 = nothing
Unlit propane = nothing
Lit propane = starts right up
Ether = starts right up

I also fail to see how ether could affect the cylinder bores one iota. By the time it makes it to the cylinder it is nothing but a wisp of a vapor anyway, no liquid at all the way I do it.

The glow plugs are heated manually so no issue with igniting with the intake valve open. I would never heat the plugs and then spray ether in it.

If you crank the engine a bunch with throttle open and it doesn't start, and then spray it with ether that's not real good. Already lots of fuel in the cylinder and when it starts with ether it really makes it knock.
If you think it might not start you'd be better off shooting a little ether in before it's cranked at all. That way it starts with very little knock.
That's the way tractors without glow plugs are started.

Ether or starting fluid is the crack of the diesel world. A couple whiffs and she'll be addicted. Usually because of a broken top ring or crack in the crown. If you ain't building enough heat, you need to verify you're getting fuel and that your starter is spinning fast enough. Ether, in my mind is like hospice. Just trying to function a few days before saying goodbye
I say this because we are open to the public. People with 0 common sense read this and don't know what a reasonable amount is. A 1 second spray, 3 seconds, a can? Better to just say no.

funwithfuel said:

A 1 second spray, 3 seconds, a can? Better to just say no.

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Or 3 cans.

Had one engine and the customer said they fed it 3 one time before it finally lit off. Let's just say she burnt.

I've had many engines that had a preheat failure of some type and were ethered to make them start. Then later they were fixed with no ill effects. Breaking a piston or ring, while possible, seems unlikely to me. If dosed with care. After all, this is an engine that pulls heavy loads for long periods of time. But I agree this is a public forum. So if you are not sure about this then be careful.

In my view all it is, is something to help get the fire started. I would much rather use the hot torch method if available to me. Ether has the advantage of being quick and easy with no open flame. You can also build a small campfire under the engine but who has time for that. Or plug it in.

Don't do it.
Better off preheating the intake air with a torch. Unless you don't care about broken rings.

Bluox said:

Most people don't preheat long enough ,the colder it is the longer you heat.
when it's cold I usually heat and crank till I get smoke then heat again.
The trouble with spring air is most people use way to much.
Bob

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This is the Cat method for starting a precup engine down to 32*F .
Preheat 1-2 min. and try to start .
run starter 10 seconds if it don't start pre heat again.
When the engine starts keep using the glow plugs till it runs smooth.
any colder and ether can be used after heating and while starting.
The old tractors had a ether injector that used ether capsules .
When the DI engines came out they had ether injection setup on them that had a ether cylinder the size of a propane torch.
If you want to run in cold weather use a multi weight oil and check your glow plugs and batteries.
Like I said don't use much ether .
Bob

Ether works real well for cleaning up oil and grease and costs a lot less than brake clean around here. I never much cared for using it to start diesels with but you use what you have to use to get a machine running when you have crew standing around on the clock. If you have some common sense, it isn't much of an issue. At the same time the human race seems to be breeding common sense out of the gene pool.

Birken Vogt said:

I once did a little Mitsubishi in the woods with a dead glow plug system and cold, so I thought I would try the various things people have said over the years.
I also fail to see how ether could affect the cylinder bores one iota. By the time it makes it to the cylinder it is nothing but a wisp of a vapor anyway, no liquid at all the way I do it.

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I think you failed to use enough, to really wreck the cylinders, you need to put half a can right down your intake, or give it a heavy shot when its already running so it clatters and bangs, I ended up installing an ether injector kit on a deere, its a 7.6 liter engine and it came with a couple nozzles, I used the 4 liter nozzle and even dead cold, its enough to get it started. The Deere manual says to crank it for a while then hit the ether button, I think that's to get the oil moving first.

I remember one cold morning in the High Sierras on some late October fire, seeing a man walk up to his old Autocar water truck something-or-other, standing flat footed on the ground, and aim half a can of ether at the breather inlet in the cold morning air, high up on the side of the hood, vapor everywhere, that sucker started though.

Just though, that is not that's not the way I do it, I take care to get the ether right where it needs to be. The other problem I see is when cranking the engine is not sucking much air, through the air cleaner, through the turbo, through the aftercooler and long pipes, finally reaches the engine.

The first wisp reaches the engine and it takes off, now it sucks in another lungful of whatever has soaked into the air cleaner, etc. which is totally not needed and excess because the thing is already running!

I too like to spray only when already cranking so it hits the cylinders and then is gone if the engine takes off, and if it doesn't take off then a little more, until you get the desired result.

Of course if you are fighting a dead battery then this system does not work.

Wow, thats wrecked! I've only seen one where the piston top was expanded and dragging in the bore.

I have pulled up on "no start" engine jobs before and found multiple empty ether cans lying on the ground. If it doesn't kick off on a small shot or 2..............something isn't right and throwing more starting fluid to it isn't going to fix it.

Well it might, if the fuel system had a bunch of air in it, and getting the engine to operating RPM with ether was able to run the fuel pump long enough to get everything primed.

It worked for billy bob one time, of course he did not know what was wrong. And now he thinks that is the way to get every diesel going that won't start for whatever reason.

Avoid ether if you can. New or rebuilt engines need a sign on them that says NO ETHER!. When you use it, you know you've used too much when you hear that clattering sound right when the engine fires up.
If you use it, keep the nozle several feet away from the intake and use very little vapor. Never use it to prime the engine or when a machine is running.

I use either daily on one of my older fork trucks.It’s been that way for 20 years,but it’s only ever me who starts it.I also have an old JCB that needs a sniff.I figured out about 10 years ago,the engine probably needed a rebuild,but it still keeps going.
However,in 30 years,I’ve never used it on any of my D4 - D9 dozers no matter what.
We tend to get down to only -15 here on a very cold winter and that’s rare.
On my pre heat D8’s they get a good 2 minuits preheat,and I continue preheating them just after they fire up until I’m happy.Low idle is the name of the game at this point.I’ve sacked men in the past on the spot if they open them up.
As for my R and T series big tractors,they’ve never failed to start……yet
I’m honestly not sure what I’d do to be honest.I’d have to ask someone.