Deere vs Cat controls

[Gary825]

Working out of a union hall most of us will run back hoes or excavators with either controls , some won't . When asked which I can run I usually reply " I can run either but I am only good on what I ran last " and it don't seem to matter how long ago it was . At times I get kind of stuck in between , not so great on either when you get jumping from company to company although this usually pertains to the little back hoes and today that is almost a thing of the past as most all can be changed by the fip of a switch ( finally ) . I have to say I don't think I was ever as confident on JD pattern as I am Cat SAE and thats after almost 30 years of trying . I used to like the old case with the foot swing being their was nothing to confuse it with until I ran across a Cat 416 that looked similar except the stick that would be for the extend-a-hoe on a Case was the swing on this Cat . Finally got used to that and then was sent out on a 580 and kept extending the stick when attempting to swing . Thank God for Joy sticks and the switch to make them do what " I " want it to do finally ........... Then JD decides to remove the forward and reverse shifter handle in the rubber tired loader and only has a rocker switch on the side of the boom lever, GREAT ! Stop trying to reinvent the mouse trap for a couple more years please ?

 

[stumpjumper83]

To me its pick one and stick with it. While I can train myself to switch pattern, i choose not to for safety. If I ever have to purely react to something, my brain may pick the other pattern, resulting it damage or death.

Personally I think the industry should adopt a standard and run only that pattern. The different patterns originated as a way to keep customers loyal, but I believe for safety that there should be a set standard, and if that means that I have to learn deere pattern then so be it, at least everything will be the same.

 

[DGODGR]

Working out of a union hall most of us will run back hoes or excavators with either controls , some won't . When asked which I can run I usually reply " I can run either but I am only good on what I ran last " and it don't seem to matter how long ago it was . At times I get kind of stuck in between , not so great on either when you get jumping from company to company although this usually pertains to the little back hoes and today that is almost a thing of the past as most all can be changed by the fip of a switch ( finally ) . I have to say I don't think I was ever as confident on JD pattern as I am Cat SAE and thats after almost 30 years of trying . I used to like the old case with the foot swing being their was nothing to confuse it with until I ran across a Cat 416 that looked similar except the stick that would be for the extend-a-hoe on a Case was the swing on this Cat . Finally got used to that and then was sent out on a 580 and kept extending the stick when attempting to swing . Thank God for Joy sticks and the switch to make them do what " I " want it to do finally ........... Then JD decides to remove the forward and reverse shifter handle in the rubber tired loader and only has a rocker switch on the side of the boom lever, GREAT ! Stop trying to reinvent the mouse trap for a couple more years please ?

This is the "Ford" or "Sherman" control pattern. This is what I learned on. IMO it's not a really common pattern. In fact I was able to get a union job on the "48 hour clause" because the Operating Engineers could not find anyone who could run this pattern.
BTW some one else posted that they prefered the Case pattern so that they could puch and steer at the same time. This can be done with the Ford pattern too.
Obviously many (myself included) have been talking about rubber tired backhoe patterns. I have only seen woble sticks on excavators. Just curious.....what other patterns are out there?

 

[BearOnt]

I learned 4 stick on an old Davis trencher.
Then went to a two stick on a JD 410, very easy transition.
The first excavator I operated was an old 690B JD with the long 2 sticks coming out of the floor between your feet.
Then the mini pilot controls on the arm rest.
Then onto the longer sticks, which most excavators are using now.
We have one operator using SAE and the rest are ISO.
The SAE operator's comment was that he never gets a break, his hands are always busy. Where with the ISO you can grab a sip of coffee without stopping..
Obviously I prefer the ISO, I tried to learn the SAE but found it horribly frustrating..
For us its easy to train a new guy on ISO. We just tell them the left hand controls the boom (up,down and swing) the right hand controls the bucket(in,out, curl and dump).

My father told me that John Deere developed the first 2 stick excavator. The cab was on the right side so the left lever controlled the boom because it was closest to the boom.
Not sure if it was for patent reasons or why the other manufacturers switched it up.

 

[BearOnt]

690A pic

John Deere 690B pic
http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/BearOnt/Excavating Pics/

 

[Greg]

First hoe I ran was a Deere no. 95 on the back of a 450C crawler which had a loader on the front. After that on to excavators with SAE controls. Got used to those and that is now what I prefer. All of the newer machines seem to have a switch on them so it is nothing to flip it and have what you are used to. I know a few that REFUSE to run anything but Deere controls. If they can't flip the switch to get it their way they WON'T run it.

No body threw in the Case three lever arrangement on the their tractor backhoes. There is another one to get used to.

 

[digger242j]

No body threw in the Case three lever arrangement on the their tractor backhoes. There is another one to get used to.

Except for Digger in post#20. :cool2

That's ok. My wife and kids don't pay attention to anything I say either.

 

[Revicm]

Nothing more humbling then saying you know how to operate something and finding out the controls are different lol! John Deere controls cause thats all we ever had. I won't rent a machine that doesn't have a pattern change button or lever. After 25 years the machine can adapt to me instead of the other way around.

 

[Greg]

:BangheadIndependent old salt aren't you Revicm. hee hee hee

 

[fastime12]

yes if you like deer then dig with deer but if you can run deer you can run cat once you master them both it wont matter they will be the same to you.I only ran deer at first but then got hired at new company they had cat it was hard at first but no problem now here is the trick to converting fast when you get on the cat controled the first thing when moving the boom and you need to remember this the up and down are on the two machines are backwards so grab the up and down very important to lift boom up if you do that i you helps you remember the direction exc.I rund both ISO and DEER controls

 

[cat943]

The first machine I was on was a four stick Kato witch was fun to learn on but a pain has I would have to use my feet. After that I jumped on a cat patten Kato and I just got used to using a cat patten cant operate the JD patten to save my self, I suppose I could learn but as yet I don’t operate to many excavators with the JD patten.
On my excavator a cat 303c cr it has a patten changer and it has four pattens the cat witch it’s on at the moment and the JD and two other ones.
Out of all the excavators I have operated the spider excavator had the most controls; it had two joysticks three-foot pedals and eight levers to control the leges…

 

[GPC]

Cat controls for me. If I try the Deere style I'll end up destroying some thing. LOL

 

[coorecat]

Either, a real operator should be able to go from one to the other.I started on a Kobelco 220mark3 for cat controls and a 580superL on deere controls,little shakey going from cat to deere the first couple of days but you get the hang of it and both setups just come natural after awhile.

 

[BigDogz]

Yeah I don't think there is an industry standard. With any type of construction equipment it is more about the man than the machine IMO. It's just whatever excavator you are used to that is important. I always joke with new trainees that you must become one with the machine. It doesn't matter the controls.

 

[BigDogz]

I will say however that I am quite used to certain controls on machinery. In my old age it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, however it is important to be able to adapt as an operator. At least that's what I expect of my workers I hire.

 

[Jeckyl1920]

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I had an entertaining idea.

I run backhoe or deer controls, and was trying to fathom why cat controls would be popular. I realized running a mini that something felt off with the deer controls, and I may have ran into a logical answer.

If you look at a backhoe, the boom pivot is low to the ground, and the stick is long, longer if you have an extending stick. This makes the deer pattern popular as you are almost always using the boom to cut straight grade, so you aren't splitting up controls much if you switch to cat.

If you look at an excavator, the boom is usually a lot longer, and pivots from higher, making the working range typically in the area where the stick is vertical. This makes most of the work in the stick and bucket, then loading, you try to stick with boom and turn.

Another reason being, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use the stick and bucket only, you get more force. Not only are you putting less vertical motion, but you are leaving out the boom ram flow. On the big machines, the boom eats a ton of pump pressure, so operators doing fast production work tend to drop the boom to elevation, and cut with majority stick and bucket, or use boom float so they aren't using pump pressure for the boom.

At least that's my theory.

 

[CatKC]

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I had an entertaining idea.

I run backhoe or deer controls, and was trying to fathom why cat controls would be popular. I realized running a mini that something felt off with the deer controls, and I may have ran into a logical answer.

If you look at a backhoe, the boom pivot is low to the ground, and the stick is long, longer if you have an extending stick. This makes the deer pattern popular as you are almost always using the boom to cut straight grade, so you aren't splitting up controls much if you switch to cat.

If you look at an excavator, the boom is usually a lot longer, and pivots from higher, making the working range typically in the area where the stick is vertical. This makes most of the work in the stick and bucket, then loading, you try to stick with boom and turn.

Another reason being, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use the stick and bucket only, you get more force. Not only are you putting less vertical motion, but you are leaving out the boom ram flow. On the big machines, the boom eats a ton of pump pressure, so operators doing fast production work tend to drop the boom to elevation, and cut with majority stick and bucket, or use boom float so they aren't using pump pressure for the boom.
At least that's my theory.

I've never thought to compare the different patterns and reasons for them Your theory actually makes logical sense to me.
Thank you for posting this.

 

[Jeckyl1920]

I've never thought to compare the different patterns and reasons for them Your theory actually makes logical sense to me.
Thank you for posting this.

Ya, it was itching in my head and I was wondering if any other operators had thought about this or not.

I think cat controls, splitting the pilots on excavators will give you more general use accuracy during excavating.

Meanwhile on a backhoe it doesn't, and splitting the ends feels counter intuitive to me when I have to run the boom a lot since I mostly ran flat work. I feel shorter than 3 to 4 feet deep, it would still feel counter intuitive.

 

[John C.]

The two dominant patterns in the US are not Caterpillar and John Deere. The stated Caterpillar control is actually ISO standard and the John Deere pattern is SAE standard. The controls have always been a hodgepodge of what any particular manufacturer was thinking at the design stage. When excavators first came out you would find all kinds of different patterns because there were all kinds of control mediums and most controls were based loosely on crane controls. Line cranes in the days of big gears, shafts, frictions and brakes generally had the swing in the left hand while working the line drums with levers in your right hand. It wasn't much of a problem on lift machines but duty cycle cranes that handled drag lines and clam buckets were like rubbing you tummy while patting your head until muscle memory gradually made things automatic. Then came air operated excavators which shifted by whatever brand you happened to be on that day. I ran a couple of Koehrings that were air controlled. As I recall two handles that only moved front to back. Left one controlled the swing and right controlled the boom. Two air buttons on the top of each handle controlled the stick and bucket. Those machines were free swing. Link-Belt cranes had a pilot system called Speed-O-Matic. Small levers on a table just in front of the operator controlled pilot oil to actuate frictions. Brakes were still manual back then. Then came the hydraulic machines in the mid to late seventies and everything changed more to what you see now.

There are other patterns that can be found as well. When the gray market was hot in the eighties and nineties the predominant pattern from Asia had the swing in the left hand operating forward and backward. The stick was left hand side to side. There were few pattern changers back then and some didn't have the ISO pattern anyway. Tracing hoses and keeping track of which you shifted sometimes was a bit confusing.

 

[heymccall]

My caterpillars have the choice of SAE and BHL, with BHL meaning BackHoeLoader. Therefore, the "common" Caterpillar pattern must be SAE (not ISO). My newer Cats, including the backhoes, use electronic valves as opposed to the manual one above.

As for the earlier post on a Takeuchi, all my Takeuchi minis have pattern change valves. What model Takeuchi is this plumber's mini?