613C- replaced transmission pump - now wont move?

[Gary H]

Long story but I had a mechanic start work on the transmission and then he didnt finish the work. I put it all back together and also replaced the transmission pump. The drive shaft turns when Idling but I can stop it with my hand. I have tried bleeding the air out with no results. Any Advice? Thanks

 

[Dave Neubert]

What was done to the trans and are you sure a o ring didn't fall out of place on the suction line if shaft is not turning the pump is not charging the converter

 

[kshansen]

Don't take this personally but are you sure there wasn't a plastic plug left in the pump when it was installed? I won't say who did that but he replied to this thread and his name isn't Dave!

You say you have tried to bleed air with no results. Does that mean nothing is coming out or that a nice full stream of oil with no air is coming out? Also where did you try to do this bleeding of the air?

 

[Gary H]

Don't take this personally but are you sure there wasn't a plastic plug left in the pump when it was installed? I won't say who did that but he replied to this thread and his name isn't Dave!

You say you have tried to bleed air with no results. Does that mean nothing is coming out or that a nice full stream of oil with no air is coming out? Also where did you try to do this bleeding of the air?

thanks for the information. The plugs are all gone in the pump. I bled one of the small lines in front of the trans, got a few spirts of oil, then nothing. Both large lines at the top of the trani had slow oil coming (no air) while engine is running. Trying everything- today will make sure my filters are not plugged. Is there one hose in particular that I can bleed air from that would bleed the system?

 

[Dave Neubert]

I never had to bleed out the air it should purge it self. go over the suction line make sure there is no leaks or maybe someone put a rag in the line

 

[kshansen]

I never had to bleed out the air it should purge it self. go over the suction line make sure there is no leaks or maybe someone put a rag in the line

I agree with Dave all the Cat transmission systems I worked on over a period of 40+ years never had a problem picking up a prime in a few seconds of running at low idle, well except for one 988A but we don't need to go into that one too much! that problem was fixed in about 15-20 minutes, that suction line is a nasty one to get to!

First things I would be checking would be the lines on suction side of the pump and a suction strainer if this machine has one, most Cats do.
Also how about a full serial number to make looking on SIS for possible things to check easier.

 

[Dave Neubert]

in the first part of your reply you said the someone was working the trans and never finished what did he do. I was wondering if he had the valve body out if so maybe he did not connect the tubes back

 

[kshansen]

in the first part of your reply you said the someone was working the trans and never finished what did he do. I was wondering if he had the valve body out if so maybe he did not connect the tubes back

Yes knowing what the guy did or didn't do would sure help. Like Dave said did he have the valve body out, heck it could still be out for all we know!

Is the guy still around? Any chance he could at least give you some kind of an idea what he was trying to do? Or can you at least tell the forum why he was even starting to work on the transmission?

I fully understand you need answers not more questions but as "we" are not there to see things first hand asking questions are the only way we can come up with ideas.

Not trying to beat a dead horse over this but that serial number would be a lot of help.

 

[Gary H]

What was done to the trans and are you sure a o ring didn't fall out of place on the suction line if shaft is not turning the pump is not charging the converter

What was done to the trans and are you sure a o ring didn't fall out of place on the suction line if shaft is not turning the pump is not charging the converter

What was done to the trans and are you sure a o ring didn't fall out of place on the suction line if shaft is not turning the pump is not charging the converter

thanks Dave. The trans was taken apart and all put back together with new gasket kit. I will recheck the line at the pump / converter.s far as I know, the o rings are all in place and tight. thanks again.

Don't take this personally but are you sure there wasn't a plastic plug left in the pump when it was installed? I won't say who did that but he replied to this thread and his name isn't Dave!

You say you have tried to bleed air with no results. Does that mean nothing is coming out or that a nice full stream of oil with no air is coming out? Also where did you try to do this bleeding of the air?

I agree with Dave all the Cat transmission systems I worked on over a period of 40+ years never had a problem picking up a prime in a few seconds of running at low idle, well except for one 988A but we don't need to go into that one too much! that problem was fixed in about 15-20 minutes, that suction line is a nasty one to get to!

First things I would be checking would be the lines on suction side of the pump and a suction strainer if this machine has one, most Cats do.
Also how about a full serial number to make looking on SIS for possible things to check easier.

hi guys-- I sure thank you for 'brain storming' with me. The serial # of this scrapper is 98Z26957 613 C II........The fella is not here anymore- so unable to ask him the what and wheres. I did put the tubes in the valve bodies while putting it back together-- checked and no plugs were left in the new pump, all the hoses are tight so I feel there are no air leaks. One thing I did do today was prime the new pump. I put about 1/4 cup oil in the small threaded hose hole. Would that be my prob ? It would not hold any more than that-- maybe I need to put more in now since I started the engine and tried to engage the gears. I know you said no priming needs done usually--it is a new pump. long day- no headway.... you all know how that goes. thanks again

 

[Mark250]

Hi ,is the replacement pump cat or non cat and did it come with or with out the drive gear?
If it came with a drive gear ,is it the correct size and same number of teeth ?
if you swapped gears from pump to pump have you fitted the woodruff key and torqued the nut correctly?
Mark

 

[Dave Neubert]

By any chance have you rechecked the oil level sometimes you have to add oil several times as the trans gets charged up

 

[kshansen]

A couple things, I checked in SIS and the 98Z26957 S/N is the engine serial number that goes with Machine S/N 8LJ01794 with build date of 8/21/1998.

One thing I would be very interested in checking is the magnetic screen in the transmission case to be sure it is clean and also that the cover seal in in place and in good condition.

 

[kshansen]

This might also help understand how the transmission hydraulic system works, see 613 Hydraulic system.pdf. That is for the transmission system.

Note that oil is drawn from the transmission case through a magnetic screen and into the "B" section of the pump, closest to the transmission case and then straight to the filter. I would expect to have a good flow of oil getting to the filter after a couple seconds or running even at low idle. If not there would almost have to be either a problem in the suction side of the pump or a problem in the pump itself.

If there is a problem past the filter you may not build pressure at the filter but should still see a good flow of oil coming out of the filter.

Just as a easy test I would remove the plug from the top of the transmission oil filter head and hook up a hose to it and start the machine and see if there is a good flow of oil.

Also including the spec's on the transmission pump to show the Transmission charging section of the pump puts out 24 gallons a minute at full speed so even at low idle it should be flowing a good stream of oil!

 

[Gary H]

This might also help understand how the transmission hydraulic system works, see 613 Hydraulic system.pdf. That is for the transmission system.

Note that oil is drawn from the transmission case through a magnetic screen and into the "B" section of the pump, closest to the transmission case and then straight to the filter. I would expect to have a good flow of oil getting to the filter after a couple seconds or running even at low idle. If not there would almost have to be either a problem in the suction side of the pump or a problem in the pump itself.

If there is a problem past the filter you may not build pressure at the filter but should still see a good flow of oil coming out of the filter.

Just as a easy test I would remove the plug from the top of the transmission oil filter head and hook up a hose to it and start the machine and see if there is a good flow of oil.

Also including the spec's on the transmission pump to show the Transmission charging section of the pump puts out 24 gallons a minute at full speed so even at low idle it should be flowing a good stream of oil!

I will try a few of those suggestions tomorrow. I did put a new filter on and cleaned the screen. It seems to be boiling down to the new pump. it is after market- not Cat. I did not get the drive gear, used the one I had---put the woodruff key in......what would be proper torque on the nut? (as Dave suggested) I guess I don't know. I did not over tighten. Thanks for the time you are putting into this.

 

[kshansen]

Can you believe Cat does not give a spec. for that nut? So guess it would be just standard torque for the size it is. Standard torque according to Cat for a 5/8 fastener is 160 +/- 30 lb. ft. As this is a tapered shaft I would assemble with the gear and shaft both dry, no oil or lubricant of any kind.

Below is the assembly instructions for the pump.

 

[Dave Neubert]

why did you change pump if it worked with old pump try it and see if it is better

 

[Gary H]

I really appreciate you fellas and the knowledge you share. I finally got it today...It all boiled down to the plates that separate the valve bodies was switched. The fella who had started the project had them switched. When I opened it up and seen they did not match up- it was easy from then on. Thanks a million. Gary

 

[Mark250]

I really appreciate you fellas and the knowledge you share. I finally got it today...It all boiled down to the plates that separate the valve bodies was switched. The fella who had started the project had them switched. When I opened it up and seen they did not match up- it was easy from then on. Thanks a million. Gary

Glad you got it sorted out
I didn't think that was possible as the hole patterns are offset
Mark

 

[Dave Neubert]

Good it is always hard to go in and finish up someone else's work

 

[kshansen]

Glad you got it sorted out
I didn't think that was possible as the hole patterns are offset
Mark

Never under estimate the abilities of some people to figure out a way to screw something up!

Glad to hear it seems to be working again!