I am about to pull the trigger on a new machine, comparing a cat 262D, 242D and Bobcat 630 & 650. I'm leaning toward the 630 and like that they don't have a DPF or DEF to deal with but am leary on a whole new engine design without knowing it's been put to the test. Does anyone have any good info about this one?
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New Bobcats, No DPF, no DEF and a bobcat diesel engine. Thoughts and experiences?
- Thread starter Todd v.
- Start date
Hmm, I was told the machine I was looking at had Bobcat's own designed engine not a Doosan or a Kabota. I know the dalesman aren't always right of course. I'll do some digginng when I have some time. Either way the cold weather issue won't be a problem for me down here but if they don't square it away it will hurt resale value I'm sure.
The fact that the engine runs with a DOC which is what most are running below 75 hp,it should be trouble free, really isn't much to go wrong. The machines that are over 75 hp and require DEF and in some cases a DPF as well, that is another question.
durallymax
Senior Member
Bobcats "own" design is Doosan, Doosan owns Bobcat. The cold weather issue has been a big one up here, but down by you it shouldn't be. The idea of a DPF scares a lot of people due to their earlier issues, they've been around the block a few times now and many have been forgotten about by now and just accepted as the norm. I would not buy a machine just because it does or does not have a DPF. The DPF is serviceable and will need service after a few thousand hours. The costs to service them are low, cleaning machines are everywhere now thanks to the trucking industry. It's still an added cost yes, but negligible when buying a new machine. Many that sell against it will say the DPF requires operator input and can leave you stranded. I can't speak for all machines, but most DPF's do their work in the background. On the Cat machines you are looking at, which have a Kubota motor with DPF, when they need to do an active regen an indicator will come on and you just set the hand throttle to 1/2 or more and keep working. It will also just do it on its own if the machine is parked and idling. Our's is over 400hrs and nobody has ever asked about a flashing light so I assume it has not come up yet surprisngly, I figured it would've by now but maybe not. It does rev up after sitting idling but no indicator, could be a regen, maybe its an anti idle feature, havent asked. As with any DPF the harder you work the machine, the less PM you will produce to begin with and the more heat you will create for passive regeneration of the DPF. As for the being "stranded" part, the D series Cat's have multiple stages for active regen's just like a lot of offroad equipment. They don't force you to do a regen at first, you can keep running with the light on but its best to let it do its thing as soon as it requests to do so to avoid moving up to the other stages. The next stage may be a stopped regen where you have to park the machine and let it do its thing. Another stage will require a service tech to force one with their tools. I cannot exactly remember how it is all spelled out in the book. IIRC the last two stages will derate you until you perform the regen. A lot of the offroad equipment is setup this way because they are sometimes in a situation where a regen cannot be performed. The regen does not effect machine performance, but does need time to complete and does create a lot of heat out of the exhaust. The D series exhaust now exits behind the cab and points across the machine so it will not be directed at anything surrounding the machine. Things like pickups and semi's are usually out on the open road and thus as long as you are at speed and driving, they will perform the regen sometimes without telling you, you can hear the difference in the tone though. If you slow down they may pause it and tell you to drive to clean the filter. The bottom line is, don't ignore the DPF and life will be better. If you can't perform a regen for one reason or another its no big deal, the initial prompts are well before the filter is nearing capacity, but remember that you ignored it so the next time you make sure you can do it or when you take lunch, or some other break just leave the thing idling and let it do its deal, it burns a little fuel but again nothing that would make me buy one machine over the other.
durallymax
Senior Member
Who's using them on 50-75hp class machines? Enough companies, keep in mind the emissions standards are based on engine power output with skid steers falling into three different categories: 25-50hp, 50hp-75hp, 75hp-175hp. Above that there is 175-750hp and simply 750hp+. EGR, CEGR, DOC, DPF, SCR, HPCR are all technologies being used to meet the standards. None of those mean much if you don't understand them, and many OEM's use different wording that can be too confusing. There isn't really a law about it.
Most of the engines all have HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail) injection on them now for the fuel system. This is a system that is very common on most modern diesels now (Duramax was one of the first major applications for modern HPCR more than 15 years ago) , computer controlled and actually fairly simple. The only change with these systems is their tight tolerances, they have low micron filters and need clean fuel. The reason for HPCR is the high pressure allowing for better atomization along with injectors allowing for multiple injections. Computer control allows each injection to be changed based on many other factors, the number of injections, the timing of them, the pulse width of them, etc.
EGR (Exhaust Gas Re-circulation) is just what it sounds like and comes in a few flavors. Internal EGR (sometimes labeled as iEGR/IEGR) uses timing of the valves to keep some exhaust in the cylinder, its not very common anymore. External EGR routes exhaust gases externally back into the intake. CEGR is the cooled version of external EGR which runs the exhaust gas through a heat exchanger alongside engine coolant then puts it back into intake. Both external EGR systems usually use EGR valves to regulate the flow of EGR, its not just a pipe connected from one to the other. CEGR systems may not always be listed as CEGR and may just say EGR but no non cooled system will be listed as CEGR. The system is pretty easy to spot with an engine picture, the heat exchangers are very obvious. On the Cat machines you looked at the EGR is on the left upper side of engine behind the heat shield that says "Hot". The goal of EGR is NOx (Nitrogen Oxide) reduction by reducing the combustion temperature and reducing the available oxygen in the cylinder. NOx is produced when Nitrogen and Oxygen combine under the high heat and pressure during combustion. The less oxygen available, the less NOx than can potentially be produced, keeping the temp down also reduces the amount produced. The downside of this is obviously the fact you go against everything you were ever taught about power and efficiency, heat and oxygen are what you want for efficient powerful combustion. EGR restricts both of those and thus generally speaking, fuel efficiency is not as good and particulate matter emissions are generally increased. The fuel efficiency loss is really small overall especially on small engines. The reason for cooling the EGR is to fit more of it into the cylinder, same reason you cool the charge air on engines. EGR also causes some issues with the extra soot introduced back into the engine. The soot can accumulate inside the EGR valve, narrow passages, intake manifold, etc. The soot is very abrasive also. In addition to the wear and plugging from it, large amounts of it also end up in the oil which is why its important to use a good modern oil designed to deal with the high soot levels. UOA's can also help show you what is going on. Most of the oil you can buy for a diesel now will do just fine in an EGR motor, CI-4+ and CJ-4 is about all you will find, the latter is needed for engines with DPF's to avoid premature plugging, yet it is fully backwards compatible also. They use a different additives pack in those oils and the initial TBN is often lower on them, so if you are comparing UOA's make sure you understand the chemistry the oil is using for additives and such.
The DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) is a flow through device mounted downstream in the exhaust that reduces CO (Carbon Monoxide), HC (Hydrocarbons) and the organic portion of PM (Particulate Matter).
The DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) is mounted downstream of the DOC or often combined with it. The DPF is not flow through, it is a filter (often ceramic but new designs with different substrates are getting popular) that catches larger particulates by forcing the exhaust to pass through its media. Many of them look like a honeycomb, but with half of the passages plugged on one end and the other half plugged on the other end. The "regen" process uses high heat to reduce the trapped particulates down to simple ash that is stored in the filter. Over time the actual ash content will build up and need to be cleaned out or the DPF replaced depending on its design.
The SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system uses DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) to convert NOx into mostly Nitrogen and H20 (Water). DEF is 32.5% Urea in water, no its not the same as 32% fertilizer, no you cannot just run straight water in the systems. The SCR system itself is very simple and does not effect engine performance at all. The exhaust passes through the catalyst where the DEF is injected. NOx sensors determine how much DEF to inject and how good of a job the system is doing. The more NOx you are producing, the more DEF you will use. The nice thing is that it you can optimize the engine for peak combustion efficiency and reduce PM to the point a DPF may not be needed, but there are tradeoffs to that as well. The DEF fluid itself is the downside for the most part. It's corrosive, it freezes and it can degrade due to time or storage practices. Keeping it somewhere the temp is constant helps a lot, and keeping that constant temp below 80* will really help you get a few years out of your supply if needed. Keeping it out of sunlight is important as well. Freezing does not effect the DEF but it will start to get slushy at 12*F. You obviously dont want your storage frozen because you can't use it then. On the machine side of things, the fluid is pumped out of the lines at shutdown and upon starting the machine if the DEF is frozen, it will work to thaw the DEF and allow normal operation for an hour or so before it will derate. The heaters are usually coolant style so DO NOT start the machine and just let it idle, go work the damn thing. Better yet, why are you starting it and just letting any machine idle. None of the new machines like that one bit, don't do it. If you are cold, run the machine so it warms up. The corrosiveness of DEF has caused some issues with components failing, but not terribly. A few sending units became noteable for issues, the injectors are wear parts and NOx sensors also fail. Being corrosive, you must use components designed to deal with it. This means plastics, Nylon, stainless, hose designed for it and viton o-rings. You can buy DEF specific distribution equipment if you want, its not terribly expensive. A closed system is the best as it keeps air out and increases the overall life and cleanliness of the system. A closed system designed for dispensing out of an IBC with a reel and a metered auto shutoff nozzle will be $1,500-2,000. Systems without the meter and nozzle or reel can be under $1,000. Alternatively there are barrel pumps for 55 drums, or you can buy 2.5 jugs or you can buy it at the pump too. Price for 2.5s is $10-15 last I checked. Price for bulk DEF varies, I get ours for $1.70 per gallon. You won't use a ton of it, usually no more than 5% of fuel consumption at the most. For our farm equipment its not a big deal because the system is in the shop and the tractors are usually close by to fill up, for construction equipment it is not as nice since you are out on jobsites and need mobile solutions for the fluid.
In the 50-75hp category I don't see any of the OEM's using DEF.
Bobcat/Doosan: CEGR/DOC
Cat/Kubota: CEGR/DOC/DPF
CNH/ISM(IHI Shibaura): Depends on model, some have EGR/DOC smaller have DPF also.
Deere/Yanmar: CEGR/DOC/DPF
Tak/Kubota: CEGR/DOC/DPF
Gehl/Yanmar: CEGR/DPF
Mustang/Yanmar: CEGR/DPF
Terex/Perkins: CEGR/DPF
Volvo+JCB/Kohler: EGR/DOC
Volvo+JCB/JCB: Not enough time to search, No DPF or DOC supposedly.
There's many more but im out of time. Buy the machine for what it is, forget about the exhaust,.
Most of the engines all have HPCR (High Pressure Common Rail) injection on them now for the fuel system. This is a system that is very common on most modern diesels now (Duramax was one of the first major applications for modern HPCR more than 15 years ago) , computer controlled and actually fairly simple. The only change with these systems is their tight tolerances, they have low micron filters and need clean fuel. The reason for HPCR is the high pressure allowing for better atomization along with injectors allowing for multiple injections. Computer control allows each injection to be changed based on many other factors, the number of injections, the timing of them, the pulse width of them, etc.
EGR (Exhaust Gas Re-circulation) is just what it sounds like and comes in a few flavors. Internal EGR (sometimes labeled as iEGR/IEGR) uses timing of the valves to keep some exhaust in the cylinder, its not very common anymore. External EGR routes exhaust gases externally back into the intake. CEGR is the cooled version of external EGR which runs the exhaust gas through a heat exchanger alongside engine coolant then puts it back into intake. Both external EGR systems usually use EGR valves to regulate the flow of EGR, its not just a pipe connected from one to the other. CEGR systems may not always be listed as CEGR and may just say EGR but no non cooled system will be listed as CEGR. The system is pretty easy to spot with an engine picture, the heat exchangers are very obvious. On the Cat machines you looked at the EGR is on the left upper side of engine behind the heat shield that says "Hot". The goal of EGR is NOx (Nitrogen Oxide) reduction by reducing the combustion temperature and reducing the available oxygen in the cylinder. NOx is produced when Nitrogen and Oxygen combine under the high heat and pressure during combustion. The less oxygen available, the less NOx than can potentially be produced, keeping the temp down also reduces the amount produced. The downside of this is obviously the fact you go against everything you were ever taught about power and efficiency, heat and oxygen are what you want for efficient powerful combustion. EGR restricts both of those and thus generally speaking, fuel efficiency is not as good and particulate matter emissions are generally increased. The fuel efficiency loss is really small overall especially on small engines. The reason for cooling the EGR is to fit more of it into the cylinder, same reason you cool the charge air on engines. EGR also causes some issues with the extra soot introduced back into the engine. The soot can accumulate inside the EGR valve, narrow passages, intake manifold, etc. The soot is very abrasive also. In addition to the wear and plugging from it, large amounts of it also end up in the oil which is why its important to use a good modern oil designed to deal with the high soot levels. UOA's can also help show you what is going on. Most of the oil you can buy for a diesel now will do just fine in an EGR motor, CI-4+ and CJ-4 is about all you will find, the latter is needed for engines with DPF's to avoid premature plugging, yet it is fully backwards compatible also. They use a different additives pack in those oils and the initial TBN is often lower on them, so if you are comparing UOA's make sure you understand the chemistry the oil is using for additives and such.
The DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) is a flow through device mounted downstream in the exhaust that reduces CO (Carbon Monoxide), HC (Hydrocarbons) and the organic portion of PM (Particulate Matter).
The DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) is mounted downstream of the DOC or often combined with it. The DPF is not flow through, it is a filter (often ceramic but new designs with different substrates are getting popular) that catches larger particulates by forcing the exhaust to pass through its media. Many of them look like a honeycomb, but with half of the passages plugged on one end and the other half plugged on the other end. The "regen" process uses high heat to reduce the trapped particulates down to simple ash that is stored in the filter. Over time the actual ash content will build up and need to be cleaned out or the DPF replaced depending on its design.
The SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) system uses DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) to convert NOx into mostly Nitrogen and H20 (Water). DEF is 32.5% Urea in water, no its not the same as 32% fertilizer, no you cannot just run straight water in the systems. The SCR system itself is very simple and does not effect engine performance at all. The exhaust passes through the catalyst where the DEF is injected. NOx sensors determine how much DEF to inject and how good of a job the system is doing. The more NOx you are producing, the more DEF you will use. The nice thing is that it you can optimize the engine for peak combustion efficiency and reduce PM to the point a DPF may not be needed, but there are tradeoffs to that as well. The DEF fluid itself is the downside for the most part. It's corrosive, it freezes and it can degrade due to time or storage practices. Keeping it somewhere the temp is constant helps a lot, and keeping that constant temp below 80* will really help you get a few years out of your supply if needed. Keeping it out of sunlight is important as well. Freezing does not effect the DEF but it will start to get slushy at 12*F. You obviously dont want your storage frozen because you can't use it then. On the machine side of things, the fluid is pumped out of the lines at shutdown and upon starting the machine if the DEF is frozen, it will work to thaw the DEF and allow normal operation for an hour or so before it will derate. The heaters are usually coolant style so DO NOT start the machine and just let it idle, go work the damn thing. Better yet, why are you starting it and just letting any machine idle. None of the new machines like that one bit, don't do it. If you are cold, run the machine so it warms up. The corrosiveness of DEF has caused some issues with components failing, but not terribly. A few sending units became noteable for issues, the injectors are wear parts and NOx sensors also fail. Being corrosive, you must use components designed to deal with it. This means plastics, Nylon, stainless, hose designed for it and viton o-rings. You can buy DEF specific distribution equipment if you want, its not terribly expensive. A closed system is the best as it keeps air out and increases the overall life and cleanliness of the system. A closed system designed for dispensing out of an IBC with a reel and a metered auto shutoff nozzle will be $1,500-2,000. Systems without the meter and nozzle or reel can be under $1,000. Alternatively there are barrel pumps for 55 drums, or you can buy 2.5 jugs or you can buy it at the pump too. Price for 2.5s is $10-15 last I checked. Price for bulk DEF varies, I get ours for $1.70 per gallon. You won't use a ton of it, usually no more than 5% of fuel consumption at the most. For our farm equipment its not a big deal because the system is in the shop and the tractors are usually close by to fill up, for construction equipment it is not as nice since you are out on jobsites and need mobile solutions for the fluid.
In the 50-75hp category I don't see any of the OEM's using DEF.
Bobcat/Doosan: CEGR/DOC
Cat/Kubota: CEGR/DOC/DPF
CNH/ISM(IHI Shibaura): Depends on model, some have EGR/DOC smaller have DPF also.
Deere/Yanmar: CEGR/DOC/DPF
Tak/Kubota: CEGR/DOC/DPF
Gehl/Yanmar: CEGR/DPF
Mustang/Yanmar: CEGR/DPF
Terex/Perkins: CEGR/DPF
Volvo+JCB/Kohler: EGR/DOC
Volvo+JCB/JCB: Not enough time to search, No DPF or DOC supposedly.
There's many more but im out of time. Buy the machine for what it is, forget about the exhaust,.
apetad
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2012
- Messages
- 385
- Location
- Leander, Texas
- Occupation
- Compact Construction Equipment Sales
You are "The Man" on aftertreatment! Right on brother, Don't be scared by the technology, but does it REALLY help the environment???
Does it really help the enviroment? Sometimes I'm not sure that they really know. I know one thing is for sure, diesels could/would be a lot more efficient without it. My old 24valve cummins gets 22-23 mpg on the highway, nothing new that weighs the same can touch that. So we burn more fuel to create cleaner exhaust and at a huge expense. Who knows?
Durrallymax, thank you for all that info. I am not really scared of a DPF, actually I was more leary of an engine designed to run hotter and the effect that may have on it's longevity. Sometimes new technology takes a year ow two to show it's shortcomings. The machines themselves will probably be what makes my mind up in the end, I like the cat machine a little better on paper I think but I haven't yet demoed either, I will demo both within a couple weeks. The one thing that has me leary on the Cat machine is the rear door, looks like it could get expensive if I backed into the wrong tree, or at least it would take more than just paint damage pretty easily. With the Bobcat it's the newly designed engine, & the cold issues. Not many out there with a lot of hours yet and the cold running issues may not impact me directly but might really hurt resale values. I'm not planning to dump it, but a wise invest is a wise investment... As far as dealer support in the area, Cat wins that one.
Durrallymax, thank you for all that info. I am not really scared of a DPF, actually I was more leary of an engine designed to run hotter and the effect that may have on it's longevity. Sometimes new technology takes a year ow two to show it's shortcomings. The machines themselves will probably be what makes my mind up in the end, I like the cat machine a little better on paper I think but I haven't yet demoed either, I will demo both within a couple weeks. The one thing that has me leary on the Cat machine is the rear door, looks like it could get expensive if I backed into the wrong tree, or at least it would take more than just paint damage pretty easily. With the Bobcat it's the newly designed engine, & the cold issues. Not many out there with a lot of hours yet and the cold running issues may not impact me directly but might really hurt resale values. I'm not planning to dump it, but a wise invest is a wise investment... As far as dealer support in the area, Cat wins that one.
Last edited:
crewchief888
Senior Member
actually the doosan engine "family" that the 600 sized m series is using has been in production in both doosan forklifts and air compressors, before it was introduced to the bobcat line.
so far the engine itself has been pretty much trouble free, (at least from what i've heard and seen), most of the problems we've seen have been fuel Quality related, or fuel filters that are not fully seated, or plugged causing suction leaks, low rail pressure and fuel rail pressure faults.
:drinkup
There's a significant difference between an engines life in a forklift and air compressors vs a skid steer or CTL.
durallymax
Senior Member
I don't get into the politics of emissions, but there are good things that have come out of it. Your 24v had to meet emissions standards that were considered strict at the time. Emissions standards have driven technology, technically our engines wouldn't be as efficient as they are now if it wasn't for the emissions standards forcing them to get cleaner. Eventually they may have ended up in a similar place, but regulations put things on the fast track. Very advanced fuel and air systems have been a large part of that. High pressure injection, piezo injectors, variable turbos, and lightning fast computers are all things that would very likely stay on the engines even with no emissions regulations.
People are usually quick to point out modern diesel pickups and how inefficient they are. However they only talk in MPGs and leave out the fact that the power has nearly doubled. It still takes fuel to make power. With the systems removed and some different tuning, mileage does improve slightly sometimes. Some vehicles really don't improve as much as you might think though. A lot of the off road engines are actually more efficient than they have ever been. EPA10 truck engines are as efficient as the earlier engines were. EPA07 engines were **** poor but things have gotten much better.
I'd love to not have the stuff, but do appreciate the technology it has created. Diesels are now clean, nice to drive, quiet and gaining more respect overall since they have cleaned up.
Reliability in some applications has suffered. Mostly the emissions stuff on its own with issues but the different conditions in the engines has created increased wear that has to be dealt with properly. UOAs are very helpful on newer engines. Some applications people don't wear engines out to begin with, like pickups for example. Other industries like trucking are having to overhaul much sooner than before. Hopefully now that the OEMs have had some time to perfect the systems this can be addressed. For now emissions regs are at their max with nothing set in stone, efficiency is the next regulation on road engines are having to meet. There is talk of taking emissions regulations further to reduce CO2. How they will do that I don't know and why they want to I don't know either. There's only such you can do there, every gallon of fuel burned will emit a certain amount of CO2. Many of the emissions systems components convert some of the harmful emissions into relatively harmless CO2. Hopefully they leave it alone and just focus on efficiency.
As for burning more fuel to reduce emissions, it may not make sense but it does. The amount of extra fuel you would have to burn in an emissions motor to equal the emissions of a non emissions engine would be astronomical. Now common sense may say the overall environmental impact may not be better, I don't have the numbers to show that. One things for sure, this is nowhere near the end of it and better technologies and solutions will come. There are so great ideas out there that haven't been implemented yet for various reasons, as time goes on things will get better.
As for the concern over the Doosan, I don't know enough about exactly how they are operating to meet the standards. The concept of reducing PM in cylinder is not new or uncommon. A few different engines chose this route. I don't think it's any more or less reliable in theory, the individual engine can differ but for reasons likely outside the emissions strategy. It sounds like operation is being greatly effected on the machines though and that is an issue. I usually am a fan of letting the first year work the bugs out for any big change but if you like the Bobcat enough I'd buy it.
As for the Cat door, have you looked at one yet? It's light, but it's actually reinforced significantly inside and fairly strong. It takes something pretty solid to actually mangle it up. The only way you can hit it is with something protruding that you back into. Swinging it's protected by the sides and backing up the lower bumper as well as the boom up high both protect the door. You can always opt to get a camera so you see what you are backing into lol. Still things happen, but it's one of those things I think doesn't hold a serious amount of value between the machines. The big thing everyone talks about with Cats in the rear is the big ass. It's tall and while visibility is pretty good, it's still tall which does effect your line of sight. The backup camera helps out significantly and is much nicer than turning around all the time as well. Visibility through the camera is better than any machine, but takes some getting used to and still doesn't quite have the same feeling as being able to turn around and just look. Overall visibility on the Ds is very good though.
The cooling system on the cat seems to work better in very dirty environments, the coolers are side by side so they are easy to clean. The A/C condenser is right on the rear door so your A/C stays working and you can very easily quickly clean it out. The engine compartment is now sealed on the D series, all of the air that will go through the coolers has to go through the rear door. That keeps a lot of material out. Our machines work with a lot of bedding material, the older machines would draw in a lot of large chaff and pile it next to the motor. The D series has virtually no chaff in there, a lot of fine dust but no chaff. Bobcat pulls air in the top and blows it out the sides. If your just doing dirt work either setup will probably work fine. Some of the materials we deal with are pretty hard on cooling systems so it's something I pay attention to. The Cat coolers are very heavy plate style coolers which stands up to constant pressure washing. Some machines like the CNH machines have very lightweight tube/fin radiators that can't take the abuse as well.
The one thing I have always liked about the C/C2/D series Cats is the sealed one piece cab. The floor and everything is sealed as a unit, this really helps keep the cab sealed and keeps it pressurized even after its a few years old and the cabs been up and down and few times. Downside is that the machines are tall, not significantly over the Bobcat but it can be a concern if you have low building to get in. The CNH machines are much lower. The D series Cab may look similar to the C/C2 but they did change almost all of it. Each part of the cab is now one large formed piece of metal. The floor is one, the front is one, etc. Previously they were made up of multiple pieces fitted together which isn't the end of the world but the formed pieces help create and even tighter and quieter cab. One drastic change was moving the HVAC blowers, ducting, heater core and A/C evaporator to the cab itself. It no longer sits in the belly and splits away when the cab is lifted, it's all sealed to the cab itself which means you don't have to cover the ducting when cleaning with cab up anymore and the system stays cleaner and more efficient over time. The HVAC is a bit oversized, way to hot in winter and way to cold in summer. That's a good thing I guess though. There are a lot of seat options. Air ride is very nice for multiple operators, the cloth cover makes the any seat much more comfortable regardless of brand. They do offer a high back also which has lumbar and adjustable recline. They also offer a heater which isn't really needed for much but some people like them, I hate the switch location though. The control pods move with the seat and are quickly adjustable in and out. The dual lap bars are just as quick as a single. Most other brands have the pods moving with seat as well if you get EH controls. There's no option on the Cat, you only get EH. Pattern changed is an option though. One minor thing with the Cat is the flat floor and low threshold. Nice to get in, no hump in the middle, all debris collects in floor mat which is easily dumped, foot throttle is nice as well. Even without foot controls the Bobcat still has the single chain case in the middle so a perfectly flat floor is impractical without a cab that sits very high. The cab is extremely quiet for a skid steer, you actually can use the Bluetooth radio just fine in it and carry conversations. The quietness can be an issue if you are running things you need to hear or working with ground crews. The windows have latches on them now 2hich keeps them from rattling and allows you to hold them partially open if needed. The door is a little larger and has no opening shock, the emergency exit handles are also clocked different which helps visibility. No door shock is kind of nice. However the door does not just easily pop off like some machines, you do have to unbolt it to run without it. One advantage other machines like the Bobcat still have is ingress/egress. The D series changed the coupler and it now has a very nice step on it. With no door it works great, but the door doesn't open far enough to allow you to actually use the step, you still have to step on the attachment, the attachment plate or the tire. They do know about this and have enough complaints about it, hopefully they can come up with something. The door does open quite a bit just not enough to walk straight up and in. This isn't possible with enough attachments anyways and if you have a low pro bucket it's easy to just step on bucket.
The advanced display on the Cat is nice but I still think Bobcat is way ahead with theirs. I don't know if it's all Cat machines or just our dealer, but every new one comes with Visionlink telematics.
People are usually quick to point out modern diesel pickups and how inefficient they are. However they only talk in MPGs and leave out the fact that the power has nearly doubled. It still takes fuel to make power. With the systems removed and some different tuning, mileage does improve slightly sometimes. Some vehicles really don't improve as much as you might think though. A lot of the off road engines are actually more efficient than they have ever been. EPA10 truck engines are as efficient as the earlier engines were. EPA07 engines were **** poor but things have gotten much better.
I'd love to not have the stuff, but do appreciate the technology it has created. Diesels are now clean, nice to drive, quiet and gaining more respect overall since they have cleaned up.
Reliability in some applications has suffered. Mostly the emissions stuff on its own with issues but the different conditions in the engines has created increased wear that has to be dealt with properly. UOAs are very helpful on newer engines. Some applications people don't wear engines out to begin with, like pickups for example. Other industries like trucking are having to overhaul much sooner than before. Hopefully now that the OEMs have had some time to perfect the systems this can be addressed. For now emissions regs are at their max with nothing set in stone, efficiency is the next regulation on road engines are having to meet. There is talk of taking emissions regulations further to reduce CO2. How they will do that I don't know and why they want to I don't know either. There's only such you can do there, every gallon of fuel burned will emit a certain amount of CO2. Many of the emissions systems components convert some of the harmful emissions into relatively harmless CO2. Hopefully they leave it alone and just focus on efficiency.
As for burning more fuel to reduce emissions, it may not make sense but it does. The amount of extra fuel you would have to burn in an emissions motor to equal the emissions of a non emissions engine would be astronomical. Now common sense may say the overall environmental impact may not be better, I don't have the numbers to show that. One things for sure, this is nowhere near the end of it and better technologies and solutions will come. There are so great ideas out there that haven't been implemented yet for various reasons, as time goes on things will get better.
As for the concern over the Doosan, I don't know enough about exactly how they are operating to meet the standards. The concept of reducing PM in cylinder is not new or uncommon. A few different engines chose this route. I don't think it's any more or less reliable in theory, the individual engine can differ but for reasons likely outside the emissions strategy. It sounds like operation is being greatly effected on the machines though and that is an issue. I usually am a fan of letting the first year work the bugs out for any big change but if you like the Bobcat enough I'd buy it.
As for the Cat door, have you looked at one yet? It's light, but it's actually reinforced significantly inside and fairly strong. It takes something pretty solid to actually mangle it up. The only way you can hit it is with something protruding that you back into. Swinging it's protected by the sides and backing up the lower bumper as well as the boom up high both protect the door. You can always opt to get a camera so you see what you are backing into lol. Still things happen, but it's one of those things I think doesn't hold a serious amount of value between the machines. The big thing everyone talks about with Cats in the rear is the big ass. It's tall and while visibility is pretty good, it's still tall which does effect your line of sight. The backup camera helps out significantly and is much nicer than turning around all the time as well. Visibility through the camera is better than any machine, but takes some getting used to and still doesn't quite have the same feeling as being able to turn around and just look. Overall visibility on the Ds is very good though.
The cooling system on the cat seems to work better in very dirty environments, the coolers are side by side so they are easy to clean. The A/C condenser is right on the rear door so your A/C stays working and you can very easily quickly clean it out. The engine compartment is now sealed on the D series, all of the air that will go through the coolers has to go through the rear door. That keeps a lot of material out. Our machines work with a lot of bedding material, the older machines would draw in a lot of large chaff and pile it next to the motor. The D series has virtually no chaff in there, a lot of fine dust but no chaff. Bobcat pulls air in the top and blows it out the sides. If your just doing dirt work either setup will probably work fine. Some of the materials we deal with are pretty hard on cooling systems so it's something I pay attention to. The Cat coolers are very heavy plate style coolers which stands up to constant pressure washing. Some machines like the CNH machines have very lightweight tube/fin radiators that can't take the abuse as well.
The one thing I have always liked about the C/C2/D series Cats is the sealed one piece cab. The floor and everything is sealed as a unit, this really helps keep the cab sealed and keeps it pressurized even after its a few years old and the cabs been up and down and few times. Downside is that the machines are tall, not significantly over the Bobcat but it can be a concern if you have low building to get in. The CNH machines are much lower. The D series Cab may look similar to the C/C2 but they did change almost all of it. Each part of the cab is now one large formed piece of metal. The floor is one, the front is one, etc. Previously they were made up of multiple pieces fitted together which isn't the end of the world but the formed pieces help create and even tighter and quieter cab. One drastic change was moving the HVAC blowers, ducting, heater core and A/C evaporator to the cab itself. It no longer sits in the belly and splits away when the cab is lifted, it's all sealed to the cab itself which means you don't have to cover the ducting when cleaning with cab up anymore and the system stays cleaner and more efficient over time. The HVAC is a bit oversized, way to hot in winter and way to cold in summer. That's a good thing I guess though. There are a lot of seat options. Air ride is very nice for multiple operators, the cloth cover makes the any seat much more comfortable regardless of brand. They do offer a high back also which has lumbar and adjustable recline. They also offer a heater which isn't really needed for much but some people like them, I hate the switch location though. The control pods move with the seat and are quickly adjustable in and out. The dual lap bars are just as quick as a single. Most other brands have the pods moving with seat as well if you get EH controls. There's no option on the Cat, you only get EH. Pattern changed is an option though. One minor thing with the Cat is the flat floor and low threshold. Nice to get in, no hump in the middle, all debris collects in floor mat which is easily dumped, foot throttle is nice as well. Even without foot controls the Bobcat still has the single chain case in the middle so a perfectly flat floor is impractical without a cab that sits very high. The cab is extremely quiet for a skid steer, you actually can use the Bluetooth radio just fine in it and carry conversations. The quietness can be an issue if you are running things you need to hear or working with ground crews. The windows have latches on them now 2hich keeps them from rattling and allows you to hold them partially open if needed. The door is a little larger and has no opening shock, the emergency exit handles are also clocked different which helps visibility. No door shock is kind of nice. However the door does not just easily pop off like some machines, you do have to unbolt it to run without it. One advantage other machines like the Bobcat still have is ingress/egress. The D series changed the coupler and it now has a very nice step on it. With no door it works great, but the door doesn't open far enough to allow you to actually use the step, you still have to step on the attachment, the attachment plate or the tire. They do know about this and have enough complaints about it, hopefully they can come up with something. The door does open quite a bit just not enough to walk straight up and in. This isn't possible with enough attachments anyways and if you have a low pro bucket it's easy to just step on bucket.
The advanced display on the Cat is nice but I still think Bobcat is way ahead with theirs. I don't know if it's all Cat machines or just our dealer, but every new one comes with Visionlink telematics.
durallymax
Senior Member
Both machines have their ups and downs when it comes to serviceability. If you really want to be thorough you can see if they will let you flip the cab on both machines. The D series machines now have virtually nothing in the belly. In front of the drives there is nothing, behind one is the hydro reservoir, all of the valves and such are mounted up high. Very easy to work on and keeps the components from getting buried in debris. Servicing the engines is much different between the two, many things are easier on Bobcat due to being transverse. You will hate the Cat oil filter but a step wrench makes it easy to change, not sure why they moved the battery back there from under the cab but it's not a pleasant change.
Look around them a lot, drive them around a lot and ask other about any observations and concerns you have with them to get opinions about how it factors into real world conditions or of there are settings or options to change. I like the Cats, but Bobcat builds a great machine as well. The majority of the people I know that switched from white to yellow did it mostly due to dealer and/or service, not necessarily because they felt one machine was drastically better, although that was before the recent cold weather doosan issues.
Make sure to look into all of the different options for the machines so you know what's available and what you are comparing. Some salesman aren't the best at knowing what's all available
Good luck
Look around them a lot, drive them around a lot and ask other about any observations and concerns you have with them to get opinions about how it factors into real world conditions or of there are settings or options to change. I like the Cats, but Bobcat builds a great machine as well. The majority of the people I know that switched from white to yellow did it mostly due to dealer and/or service, not necessarily because they felt one machine was drastically better, although that was before the recent cold weather doosan issues.
Make sure to look into all of the different options for the machines so you know what's available and what you are comparing. Some salesman aren't the best at knowing what's all available
Good luck
Great info, thanks again. I will be doing demos over the next week or two. I think the Cat is a nicer machine but the Bobcat has a bit more std hydro power which would really come in handy. So really it's a tossup at this point and may just come down to who can give me the best deal and which one I like better in the seat.
Remember that there is a difference between a gear pump and a piston pump regarding hydraulic performance and power. A piston pump is more efficient than a gear pump. Also know that flow and pressure are not equal. As pressure increases your flow will decrease. You need engine torque to drive that pump as the pressure increases. I'm not sold on Bobcat getting the same hydraulic performance out of their new 2.4L engine versus the previous 3.3L engine. That's a 27% decrease in engine displacement.
I'd be curious to know what rpms they're at to get 74hp vs what the Cat is at to get the same 74hp out of the 3.3L engine. I'm only guessing, but I bet the Doosan engine is running higher rpms which translates into potential higher fuel usage. I have personally talked to new Tier IV Bobcat customers who say they are burning .5-1.0 gallons more per hour depending on the machine and application.
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crewchief888
Senior Member
directly comparing those 2 engines is like comparing apples to oranges
mechanical fuel injection vs HPCR efi..
i've heard pretty much the same thing....
even several years ago, when the K series machines came out, customers were complaining about fuel usage.
:drinkup
Good points and I am a first hand student of how hydraulic ratings can be misleading. Bobcat's std flow is 23 gph @ 3500 psi and the Cat is rated at 20 gph @ 3335 I think. I doubt either machine puts out full pressure at anything close to their rated flow. I should get a good idea who the winner is after about an hour of cutting when everything is good and warmed up.
Does the Cat have a piston pump and the Bobcat a gear pump? I don't have that info on either one.
Does the Cat have a piston pump and the Bobcat a gear pump? I don't have that info on either one.
You're right that neither machine will put out its max flow at the Max pressures they advertise. I'm pretty sure that the 262D is a piston pump and the 242D is a gear pump. All of Bobcat's pumps are belt driven gear pumps. I also don't understand why Bobcat went to hyd tanks all around 2.5 gallons.
crewchief888
Senior Member
bobcat gearpump GPM is free flow at 130F oil temp
at relief pressure you will have nearly 0 gpm.
newer hyd cooling systems are more efficient, and dont need huge reservoirs to stabilize oil temps.
hyd oil formulas are much better than they were 30 years ago.
and theres just no room for bigger hyd tanks
:drinkup
at relief pressure you will have nearly 0 gpm.
newer hyd cooling systems are more efficient, and dont need huge reservoirs to stabilize oil temps.
hyd oil formulas are much better than they were 30 years ago.
and theres just no room for bigger hyd tanks
:drinkup
John C.
Senior Member
A gear pump is a positive displacement unit which will put out almost the same amount of oil regardless of pressure. A gear pump at relief pressure would still put that oil out, it would just go across some kind of control valve. I also have to question the GPH rating. Everything I've worked on was rated at flow per minute, such as GPM or LPM. I'm guessing that GPH means gallons per hour and it is usually used for water pumps.
If a pump is rated at X gallons per minute at a certain pressure then that is the horsepower rating at well. 23 gallons per minute at 3,500 psi would be approximately 80.5 horsepower. 20 gallons per minute at 3335 psi would be around 67 horsepower. The real difference is that the gear pump would require that horsepower all the time while the piston pump would have a designed output to maximize machine efficiency and fuel consumption.
If a pump is rated at X gallons per minute at a certain pressure then that is the horsepower rating at well. 23 gallons per minute at 3,500 psi would be approximately 80.5 horsepower. 20 gallons per minute at 3335 psi would be around 67 horsepower. The real difference is that the gear pump would require that horsepower all the time while the piston pump would have a designed output to maximize machine efficiency and fuel consumption.