• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

CAT D7E no hi drive?

johndeere123

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
176
Location
Nova Scotia
I have been looking at the cat D7E and i cant find any pictures or videos of them with hi drive tracks. Is this an indicator that the hi drives are going to be eliminated over the next few years, or is it just a D7 thing? Anybody hear anything about this or know what cats plan is?
 

Plant Fitter

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
336
Location
Australia
Yair . . . I see you can buy flat track sixes and sevens in Australia (on the dealer website) is that a new carryon or was this always so?

Cheers.

I don't know how long they have been available, but I have seen them on the Cat website for a couple of years at least. They look like the type of machine that you and I would like to have Scrub. They should also be much cheaper than the electronic hi-drive models.

My only question is how much of them are the same as the older models. For example, is this new D7G series 2 similar enough to share parts with the old original D7G? If they are the same well and good, there should be plenty of parts around. But if they are not similar at all, parts supply could be an issue? I have never seen one in the wild so I don't know how many of them they have sold, if there are not many around parts may not be easy to get. However, with Cat backup I would still be confident to buy one.
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . Plant Fitter it would be interesting to know ratio of sales to hi-tracks . . . dunno, I suppose I'm a dinosaur but I just can't get my head around the hi-track concept.

I understand it and it is proven . . . but it just doesn't look right. LOL

Cheers.
 

OzDozer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
2,207
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
Occupation
Semi-Retired ..
Cat have stated that the hi-drive design is really only warranted in the larger sizes of crawlers. The complexity and cost of a hi-drive design apparently cannot be justified in the D7 and smaller size tractors.
Remember that one of the features that Cat have always bragged about in hi-drive design, is the ease of removal of drivetrain components. This is a big selling feature when you're working on big-ticket items.
With labour costs and downtime being so expensive on the big tractors, there's big savings to be had when you can have the guts of a D11 spread all over the floor of the shop in under 4 hrs, and back together and running the next day.
Nearly everything in the hi-drives drivetrain is slip-fit, snap-ring retained components, and there's rarely any presses or adaptors involved - apart from rubber or steel bushings that are pressed in.
As result, the maintenance costs on the high drives is lower, and their downtime is reduced. That's a BIG sales feature to companies who all want their plant with 100% availability.
 

ih100

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
731
Location
Peterborough UK
Yair . . . Plant Fitter it would be interesting to know ratio of sales to hi-tracks . . . dunno, I suppose I'm a dinosaur but I just can't get my head around the hi-track concept.

I understand it and it is proven . . . but it just doesn't look right. LOL

Cheers.

I struggle with these confounded internal combustion engines - still can't figure where to shove the coal in.
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . OzDozer. I'm a bit confused mate.

Nearly everything in the hi-drives drivetrain is slip-fit, snap-ring retained components, and there's rarely any presses or adaptors involved - apart from rubber or steel bushings that are pressed in.
As result, the maintenance costs on the high drives is lower, and their downtime is reduced. That's a BIG sales feature to companies who all want their plant with 100% availability.

If this is the case it seems it would be logical to extend this design philosophy to all their tractors . . . why persist with "coal burning" flat track technology for some markets and, in the case of Australia (apparently) to offer both styles of drive on Sixes and Sevens ?

Cheers.
 
Last edited:

vapor300

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
382
Location
St. louis
they dont even use the acert motors in the G series, and cat does offer flat track 6's and 7's here in the US, the 7E and 6K
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,870
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
The 7E sold in the US is an electric drive unit and costs somewhere close to a D8T. If you don't like space age, then you will absolutely hate the 7E.

As I recall the issue with the high drive on new machines has to do with the suspended bottom rollers. You only find them on D8 and larger machines. The high drive in the D6 and smaller machines ran up against competition that sold for a lot less. D7 size machines never really caught on heavy in my neck of the woods. They usually ended up in garbage operations from what I've seen.
 

big ben

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Vancouver Island
But the common link to all the new low drives is they are not conventional p/t. Any new Cat dozer that has a transmission is a high drive. D6K is hydrostatic so it just has drive motors not a transmission, much like track loaders (963, 973, etc) have never been high drives and also are hydrostatic. The D7E is also basically a hydrostatic electric drive. D6T or D6N have transmissions and are high drive still.

Cat says high drives help for ease of service and quick turn arounds on trans R&R and such - well no need when there is no transmission !
 

OzDozer

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
2,207
Location
Perth, Western Australia.
Occupation
Semi-Retired ..
If this is the case it seems it would be logical to extend this design philosophy to all their tractors . . . why persist with "coal burning" flat track technology for some markets and, in the case of Australia (apparently) to offer both styles of drive on Sixes and Sevens ?

The reason is that the advantages of hi-drive over flat track are related to the overall cost of the machine - a large-size, much more expensive tractor has more margin in its construction costs to be able to install the hi-drive system.
In the bigger tractors, the hi-drive advantages difference is larger and more noticeable.
Then there's the "design improvements" that keep the hi-drive/flat track equation in a state of flux. New track chain design such as the System One by Cat makes the flat track system gain an increase in advantage over the hi-drive.
The simple fact is that the flat track design was a proven design that worked, for over 60 or 70 years. Then came the vastly increased size of dozers, and this exacerbated the track/final drive problems that were inherent in the old flat tracks.

The three major faults of the flat track design were:

1. Regular final drive/sprocket shaft/dead axle damage caused by operators bouncing the tractor over obstructions, and landing heavily on the finals, causing dead axle bending ..
2. The basic final drive design of spur gears under massive load, that created huge gear and shaft deflection, that resulted in shortened final drive life. The planetary gear drive system (for final drives) is superb, because all drive forces are evenly distributed.
3. The basic problem that a solid track frame cannot compensate adequately for uneveness in the ground which reduces traction and increases track slippage.

The first two problems were virtually totally eliminated in the hi-drive design, and the suspended roller undercarriage went a long way to improving traction.
However, in a smaller tractor, the % points of overall gain of the hi-drive are reduced, because the hi-drive undercarriage design is complex and consists of a lot more components in total.
Thus the flat track design is adequate for all the smaller tractors. With a flat track design that includes a planetary final drive, there are some of the hi-drive gains, without the major cost of the hi-drive.
The "snap-ring, slip fit" component design is part of the planetary final drive design, no matter whether its a flat track or a hi-drive, so there's some gain there.
The drive train components are accessible enough in the smaller tractors, the hi-drive component accessibility doesn't have the same advantage there.
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . Gotcha OzDozer

Thanks for the articulate and well thought out reply. . . it's a bloody marvelous recource we have here to set old dino's like me straight.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:

vapor300

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
382
Location
St. louis
one thing i have always wondered does a high drive have an advantage over a flat track when it comes to softground, i was running a 6T LGP in very soft conditions and a guy was running a 850J lgp deere right next to me and he was having a hardtime pushing the slop, he was lucky to be able to get a quarter blade full out without getting hungup, while i was able to push quite a bit more. I know there 2 different brands but both are about equal in comparison.
 

Plant Fitter

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
336
Location
Australia
But the common link to all the new low drives is they are not conventional p/t. Any new Cat dozer that has a transmission is a high drive. D6K is hydrostatic so it just has drive motors not a transmission, much like track loaders (963, 973, etc) have never been high drives and also are hydrostatic. The D7E is also basically a hydrostatic electric drive. D6T or D6N have transmissions and are high drive still.

Cat says high drives help for ease of service and quick turn arounds on trans R&R and such - well no need when there is no transmission !

2 of the low drive dozers available in Australia, and maybe elsewhere, are not electric, not hydrostatic, just conventional transmission and final drives.

They are the D6G and D7G Series 2.

I am guessing that they are the same or similar to the original D7G, but I don't know. I am hoping somebody can tell us more about them.

I realise the D6K is hydrostatic and the D7E is electric.
 

caterpillarRy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
87
Location
massachusetts
i remember my grandfather and a friend of his talking a little about these new d7e and they said some company did the whole electric drive thing years ago but it was a flop
 

norite

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
483
Location
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
i remember my grandfather and a friend of his talking a little about these new d7e and they said some company did the whole electric drive thing years ago but it was a flop

The AC variable frequency drives are the new technology that is revolutionizing many industries. Factories and mills are putting AC drives on pumps which let them control the flow in their process without using control valves. Railroads are buying new large freight locomotives with AC motors and drives which are capable of pulling a good sized train by themselves, without the maintennance required by previous DC systems. Electric cranes are similarly being replaced or retrofitted with AC motors and drives replacing the old DC motors and controllers. I haven't had and opportunity to run a D7e myself but I think this system will become more common in the future. As for no hi-drive, despite it's advantages I wonder why no other manufacturer has copied Cat's design, I would have thought their patents on it would have expired by now.
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . . norite

As for no hi-drive, despite it's advantages I wonder why no other manufacturer has copied Cat's design, I would have thought their patents on it would have expired by now.

I could be wrong but I doubt Cat. ever had any enforcable patents on the Hi-drive concept. There are several other examples of hi-drives if you do a search. They go back I think to 1929.

Cheers.
 

D6 Merv

Senior Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
653
Location
Coromandel Peninsula. New Zealand
Occupation
Self employed bulldozing contractor with a D6D D4E
Hi plant fitter; do you know where the D6G and D7G-2 are built ? Was told both were only built in china ? Dunno if they were built elsewhere or not, but am resonable sure neither are built in usa or japan.
Both still use 3306 with DI.
cheers merv
 
Top