Can GPS help a young in experienced operator do quality professional grading?

[Sigep761]

I undestand that the model is everything in machine control. But how much does the gps actually help an operator..For example can you take a operator with minimal experience and have him finish grade with a motorgrader or Dozer? or does it just benefit an operator that is already a good operator?

 

[Komatsu 150]

It takes many years to become a good finish grader operator. There never were that many around and fewer every day. With GPS a less proficient operator can do finish work at good speed. It also makes a top operator very fast. Only down side to all these systems is an operator will never have the skills that the old guys had after 10 or 15 years.

 

[CM1995]

What will you do on a project that doesn't have a GPS model, just a set of prints, a few grade stakes and a job to do?:cool2

 

[vapor300]

No it wont! Finish grading with a blade takes alot of pratice and is very tuff

 

[Mark Thompson]

I vote no, to be quite honest GPS can be screwed up more than a cut sheet made by a drunk taxi driver, input calculations, GPS signal and connections that are not secure is some of my personal traits of distaste for the grind and go level system.

Make a friend with a old hand with experience and have them mentor you, get some time on your machine to learn it. I just would rather use a lock level, string line and some stakes myself, I was taught old school and tried out the GPS and it was dysfunctional.

 

[Greg]

Like CM1995 says, "what do you do when you run into a job without a GPS model. Kind of work done around here I have not seen job set up for GPS yet.

Oh ya, sooner or later the da-- thing is not going to work. Than what do you do with the computer wiz kid machine driver who expects to get paid for standing around all day sucking his computer talented thumb.

 

[vapor300]

You got to get good first, then get GPS. And no GPS is not disfuctional if you know what you are doing, i know in LA and TX that you have to have GPS when doing any highway work since the tolerance down there is .03, and i dont care how good you say you are you cannot cut it that close without GPS.

 

[Randy88]

I'll also vote no, it sounds like a good sales pitch to me but I've found reality is slightly different, you need skills first and know something, once learned it would speed things up but not for just anybody off the street like the sales guys are saying from what I hear gps still has a lot of bugs to be worked out, let alone cost effective, the price of the stuff all set up and ready to go isn't cheap at all. It'll have to come a long ways yet before I see it for more than just a few on very large jobs. As for Gregs statement, I"ll second that one the whole way, the kids who run them are smart but that's about all they can do, when the computer quits its time to go home.

 

[vapor300]

There are no bugs to be worked out of the new topcon and trimble systems, they have everything pretty much figured out, there is very minimal downtime on these systems. You have to have GPS on big jobs, if you dont you better have about 10 grade checkers

 

[Mark Thompson]

I have seen them work, and then not work.

Smart goes in and smart comes out, someone has to program and plot and if you would have incorrect data then you will be off grade or the slope will be screwed. I was trained back in the 70's and not the type to deny new technology, but if it works then was always willing to learn or try it. With a GPS your day can be made or busted, no matter what material you are working in I have seen it work well and people surprised me by how fast production can be done.

But 72,000.00 for some GPS units could be well spent elsewhere

 

[Mark Thompson]

I am sure they are top notch units when new, but give them time and something will go down.

 

[vapor300]

We have some of topcons old systems on are dozers and blades that are 10 years old and still perform well, just like everything else you have to maintain them, if you do you wont have any problems. yes $72,000 for topcon 3dmc2 and i think 60 for trimble accugrade

 

[Mark Thompson]

True about maintenance and upkeep, but now having 60 to 72 thousand dollars in small parts have been known to grow legs also.

I was a working superintendent for three cut and fill metro jobs and the owner had three topcon units, they did work well up top on a airport runway when you had clear line of sight the the sats, in the wide open they worked fine until you were close to the airport radar, then they went in and out.

When I was down 25 feet in the cut, they went in and out to the point we went to manual. Worked all the way down to 65 feet and never lost a grade with manual.

When the unit had a issue with aircraft signals interruption the grade crew lost the grade, just a 5k yard overlap but cost money. We had to cut out the top and back haul it to the yard which was two days skimming and re loading the trucks. 5 men and 3 machines with two very competent grade checkers.

The GPS will not work under roof, or more than the angle of satellite responses, it has to link up to however many it needs and know ours had to have at least 4 to link up.

If you get too close to a building with mirror glass in takes a dump, or shiny polished objects.

I can hire and train anyone to check grades for 2 years for what one unit cost, that includes benefits and perks.

 

[vapor300]

Sorry but that sounds like you had unqualified GPS supervisors, there are many different channels that you can run your base off of so that other signals dont interfer with your signal, but you have to know what you are doing, i have no idea how to do any of that we have one person in charge of that on every job.

Ok your purchase price of a new system is $70K, and you said that you can train and pay someone to check grade for less then that, but you have to pay that guy that amount every year, where as the GPS is $70k one time sure you may have a few parts to purchase but thats it, and getting 5-10 years out of these systems is pretty easy.

So in 10 years you would have paid your grade checker 500,000, where as you could own a gps system for a 1/4 of that

 

[Mark Thompson]

Was not due to surveyor or engineers, get a GPS system near a mirror reflection and it has signal bounce, polished granite stone, marble etc or polished stainless steel will also enhance deterioration of the signal. A few call it ghost signals, or interference. Regardless of situations bot of us set around and think up they are not anywhere close to being perfect and degrades the operators ability of learning how to operate rather than being a seat warmer.

I am trained old school but love to learn new things and enhance production, but not at the expense of the company. We ran production excavation on all the cut and fills and when a high tech piece of equipment cost more than it produces it has to go, once we ran the GPS off the job and went back to stakes and transit we increased production.

So GPS production was 30 thousand yards per month, we ditched the GPS and came back to 55-60 thousand yards a month on grade.

 

[JimBruce42]

In ten years that grade checker might have advanced through the ranks, and now be running a production machine... the GPS system will be ten years older and obsolete compared to the newer syestems of that day. We have a similar problem right now, a lot of the GPS on oru equipment is ten years old and the only replacement parts we can get is from what we have leftover. Trimble no longer even makes parts for these older systems.

Don't get me wrong it's great when it works and I'll take it over trying to work around 400 grade stakes, but it's nothing more than another tool to aide the operator. If the system goes down for a few hours or longer, the guy in the seat needs to still be able to do the job. GPS has been around for about 15 years, heavy equipment has been around for a hundred, so the argument that a person can't work because the GPS isn't working isn't a good one.

 

[Randy88]

The equipment is only as good as the ones fixing them and setting them up to run, around me, granted I'm in the middle of nowhere, there are few and far between persons who set up the programs to run the gps units in the first place, they were trying to sell them to those that did nrcs work for the county and state offices, not bad my local county office isn't up to even using lasers yet, let alone even knowing what gps is, let alone coming up with anything to resemble a program to do the job, so its up to the consumer who buys the gps to write or setup their own programs for each job, now if your up on gps to be able to do that, then you still need to be able to have a signal to run them or enough satalites to give accurate measurements, most times in the terraine I'm in and the locations we work that's not possible, if your working around and under tree's or in a ravine or ditch, too close to buildings they still won't work, now toss in the weather situation where its cloudy or rainy and some satalites are no responding you have a nice looking high priced boat anchor. If your on state or highway jobs or big construction jobs they might be the ticket for guys like me, the units cost more than the dozers I'd put them on and the type of work I do lasers and machine controls are definately the way to go, more cost effictive and user friendly and work a greater majority of the time and have local people who know how to fix and trouble shoot them. I too love technology and given enough time gps will too come down in cost and reliability will come up to all areas like it might be in your area.

 

[IsaacEssex]

if you have prints then you can make a gps model, the grade stakes just make it easier

 

[diego11]

I vote yes. Yes, GPS can help, it depends on how you can use the GPS properly as the function itself. But, experience is one of the higher factors to be an professional.

 

[flyballgrader]

Hey guys- Looking for Trimble GPS system- Sitech quoted around 45,000 for refurbished unit. $8,000.00 for mounting without reciever and control box. Looking for another souce for the complete unit. Any Ideas?- Appreciate any info. Thanks