Can GPS help a young in experienced operator do quality professional grading?

[Bigironjim]

Flyball> What exactly are you looking for? Add a machine system? Base station, rover, data collector?

 

[flyballgrader]

Im a owner/operator looking to add a GPS system to a 140 H blade, no base unit, but complete system for a blade. (trimble)

 

[Bigironjim]

I take it that you already have a base and rover?

 

[Bigironjim]

Is the 140H an ARO machine or will it need E/H valves and harness?

 

[flyballgrader]

Is the 140H an ARO machine or will it need E/H valves and harness?

I dont know what aro is, but I have trimble auto valves that came with my cross slope system, they are the same valves that come with the trimble GPS system, I am looking for the rest of the system, ms992 dual recivers and CB430 control box w/software, all onboard plumbing I can get here local.

 

[Big Iron]

Im a owner/operator looking to add a GPS system to a 140 H blade, no base unit, but complete system for a blade. (trimble)

sent you a pm. i have that unit for sale

 

[Davvinciman]

get a GPS system near a mirror reflection and it has signal bounce, polished granite stone, marble etc or polished stainless steel will also enhance deterioration of the signal. A few call it ghost signals, or interference..

I didn't know GPS was subject to bounce. Twelve satellites don't change their signal but the base unit is the signal that will define the accuracy. I had trouble with laser "bounce". Even a bright strobe would give false signals sending every light in spasm mode.
But all those things are useful if you have a large spread with multiple machines doing a lot of fine grading or when you get your cuts down close to grade. Until then, you still need the skills to move dirt and there is no laser or GPS that can teach you that.
I was on a large freeway project where the Super's girlfriend was a foreman (I am not going to say it). They were using the spreadsheets to tell them when something was supposed to be done.
One day, she asked me if we were going to be ready to spread base in the morning and we hadn't even finished or rolled out our subgrade. It's the same thing. Relying on a spreadsheet to tell you what your brain can find out if you would stick your head out of the trailer once in a while to give it some input is total folly. But I'm sure it will happen again. On that project, I also learned that all you pins and brass on the blade have to be in really good condition or you will never make that +/- 0.05 grade, especially on those grade transitions.
Automation is great but at its current level, you still have to have a brain to make things work right. Actually, I hope it stays that way.

 

[Davvinciman]

"In ten years that grade checker might have advanced through the ranks, and now be running a production machine..."

That's funny how that works. By the time you get to be a grade checker out in the Southwest, the next step up is a boss. Strange, huh?

[/QUOTE]"a lot of the GPS on oru equipment is ten years old and the only replacement parts we can get is from what we have leftover. Trimble no longer even makes parts for these older systems."[/QUOTE]

They make everything to be obsolete till the next better, faster, smarter thing comes along then you have to have that (or they require it!). But they haven't cloned my brain yet and wouldn't know why they would. (Lets hope that mold broke)

[/QUOTE] GPS has been around for about 15 years, heavy equipment has been around for a hundred, [/QUOTE]

And horses have been around since....well. My Dad talked about what you need to know to get those old Cat Super C's around a downhill curve or the best way to fatten out a slope with a Cat and Can while turning to the uphill side without rolling the can. It will get to where you won't need much of a brain pretty soon but then the good ones will go someplace where they can find a challenge. Just look at the steel workers.

 

[waterman]

I asked this question in the dozer line but I'll ask here. I've been running a dozer for 20 years,finish grade is my place to be behind a blade. I've been out of work for a few months and today i filled out an app for a job and was asked if i could use GPS, never had the need give me a stake ever 50/100ft I'm good to go. So with that said how hard is it to learn this GPS stuff??? I'm by no means a dummy i've done some layout with GPS,but don't know how that compares.

 

[Bigironjim]

I would say that none of the systems that I have been on are difficult to operate. Having someone that knows the system explain to you what you are looking at and what to do as you see changes would be the best way to get rolling. The person who builds the "model" that you see on the display, and how much info is put there, also comes into the learning curve. I have been told there are some you tube videos that con be informative. Its still cuts and fills, and these systems basically bring the design, or prints, into the cab, giving you a cut/fill indication, and once you are close to finish grade, turn the blade control over to the system to automatically drive the blade to desired elevation. If you know what system they are running, I have several operation manuals, and I could e-mail one to you.
I would admit that you havent run one, and tell them you are learning every day. What you lack in experience make up for with enthusiasm. Good Luck !

 

[manny58200]

YES it will we have about 100 operators and the young guys with the gps run circles around the older guys without. It is no contest I see it at work all day.

 

[manny58200]

I dont know who feed you that bs, but their is no such thing as a ghost signal. Maybe you should get a new gps guy becase your is not up to par. Everything you said should have been handled in a few minutes.

 

[JimBruce42]

YES it will we have about 100 operators and the young guys with the gps run circles around the older guys without. It is no contest I see it at work all day.

Are the young guys using automatics, and if you get a job or situation where the GPS is not there, how good will they be then?

 

[CM1995]

Are the young guys using automatics, and if you get a job or situation where the GPS is not there, how good will they be then?

That's my thoughts too Jim. Last week I had a job to excavate a hillside in order to make a horse riding arena. We trucked the dirt to the other side of the farm to fill in a low spot. No engineered plans, no grade stakes and no possibility of GPS but I produced what the customer wanted.

 

[manny58200]

Its easy, i trained a guy how to use it in a hour the other day. But it does take time to be comfortable with it. Its like anything else you need time behind the stick to get good at it. There are a lot of guys on here talking about how it doesn't help, its always down, or "I don't need that stuff". Let me ask you this how many times have you or someone you know over cut a area or spread material beyond the area of work. It is a tool to help speed up the building process. It works and fine grading with it is way faster. We had 2 graders with operators of the (about) same skill level fine grade a stretch of road one grading the left lane and the other the right it was a 4 to 1 ratio in the gps's favor.

 

[JimBruce42]

manny,

I agree it is a great tool to speed up the work. Company I work for has trimble on all our dozers, etc. Problem can be, it can become a crutch to, I've seen guys get completely flustered if they don't have GPS cause they got so used to it. That's why I asked if the young guys are using automatics, cause anyone can push a button and steer. A good operator should still be able to grade to stakes and "feel" as they grade. Course that's just my thoughts on it... in so many years us operators will all be obsolete probably.

 

[t3chw00di]

I dont know who feed you that bs, but their is no such thing as a ghost signal. Maybe you should get a new gps guy becase your is not up to par. Everything you said should have been handled in a few minutes.

I'm sure what he means by ghost signal is the reflected signal off rock, buildings, tree's, etc. I've never worked around tall buildings with gps, but I sure have worked close to tall spruce trees numerous times building roads and pads. The satellite signals definately do get bounced (reflected) off the tree's and cause havoc with the gps. It will start jumping up and down all over the place and/or go out because of low accuracy. The reflected signal takes longer to reach the receivers and/or base so it screws up the distance between the sat and the equipment. I just built a big pad for a contaminated liquid plant to be set up with spruce tree's on all sides. Any time I was within 30 Meters or so from an edge, I couldn't run in automatic mode.

manny,

I agree it is a great tool to speed up the work. Company I work for has trimble on all our dozers, etc. Problem can be, it can become a crutch to, I've seen guys get completely flustered if they don't have GPS cause they got so used to it. That's why I asked if the young guys are using automatics, cause anyone can push a button and steer. A good operator should still be able to grade to stakes and "feel" as they grade. Course that's just my thoughts on it... in so many years us operators will all be obsolete probably.

Yes it can be a crutch and Yes I've been there and got flustered myself. LOL I'm kind of a perfectionist and have a hard time letting a job go as 'good enough'. Too many times I waste extra time doing things that I should just let go like getting my ditch toes cut out just perfect or pushing a lump around trying to loose it in a 2 cm fill. LOL

But overall I think it is definately worth having. It's wonderful just having all the information right there, knowing where everything is or should go. I've been running iron for almost 33 yrs now and I usually don't have a hard time picturing the finished product in my mind at the beginning of a job. But for the younger folk starting out and even older operators that aren't able to grasp what the finished product should look like, the gps is invaluable because you can see on your screen what it should look like and there is no question if you have enough or too much material or should I have pushed that farther etc. Yes you still need to know how to move the dirt and place it where it belongs, but things should fall in place much faster with gps.

 

[firebird380hp]

the system is to help the operator not make him one.

 

[neikris]

Correct me if i am wrong(and i am sure some of you will). You still have to know your machine and have the understanding of how to move dirt properly. I am pretty sure gps controlled machines cant tell you how to move the 2' cut and displace it where it needs to go. Yeah it tells you your cut and fill but most machines cant just go in and hog out in one pass and be right on. I dont have gps. I do things old school i guess. But most of my jobs dont require it. So to answer the question yes it can help them in final result as far as tolerance but as far as productivity they need to learn how to run machine without it. I am a firm believer in having a vision of what something is supposed to look like when done. I understand not all operators can do that. If you cant look at a grade and figure out which way it is flowing then you might want get on another machine.

 

[gravelgrinder]

GPS Grading

I undestand that the model is everything in machine control. But how much does the gps actually help an operator..For example can you take a operator with minimal experience and have him finish grade with a motorgrader or Dozer? or does it just benefit an operator that is already a good operator?

GPS is obviously a great aid to grader/machine control for all sorts of levelling and construction.
For my 2 cents worth, operating a grader is more than just that, especially for civil works.
It covers items such as-
-knowing how to blade mix your material correctly
-knowing the properties of different materials you are working with
-knowing how to compact those materials
-knowing how to work the surface as required depending on final finish

Add these and modern control systems with a dozen other items I haven't even thought of and everyone can benefit in some way.
Certainly the finish tolerances from electronic guidance systems SHOULD be far better than eyeballing.
Some where along the way you can't avoid learning the basics that everyone else had to.
Good luck.