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Vote for D11R or a Komatsu 475
- Thread starter 9420pullpan
- Start date
Dozer575
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2007
- Messages
- 274
- Location
- Seattle, wa
- Occupation
- Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
ointhead What facts:beatsme
Other posts on this site.
digger242j
Administrator
Dozer575,
From the rules:
So, you're right. Although, I'm not sure how somebody might express the opinion that somebody else is a troll without using the word, so I'm not sure it's actually "name calling".
Also from the rules:
Terms you have used:
"Cat crap", "Catacrapa", "Catacrudies", "catsypatsy's" .
So, you see, citing the rules is a two-edged sword.
From the reaction you're getting, it seems to me, watching from the sidelines, that others are finding your posts inflammatory. Perhaps you should take that into account, and reconsider the manner in which you express your opinions, lest you begin to seem to be the instigator of the immature behavior...
From the rules:
So, you're right. Although, I'm not sure how somebody might express the opinion that somebody else is a troll without using the word, so I'm not sure it's actually "name calling".
Also from the rules:
Terms you have used:
"Cat crap", "Catacrapa", "Catacrudies", "catsypatsy's" .
So, you see, citing the rules is a two-edged sword.
From the reaction you're getting, it seems to me, watching from the sidelines, that others are finding your posts inflammatory. Perhaps you should take that into account, and reconsider the manner in which you express your opinions, lest you begin to seem to be the instigator of the immature behavior...
Dozer575
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2007
- Messages
- 274
- Location
- Seattle, wa
- Occupation
- Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
I was just doing what the other guy was too, I thought it was just to be funny. He was using Komagutsu or what ever. So agreed we all should stop that. Thank you for pointing that out.
Lashlander
Senior Member
I'm sorry.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Re 'Kummagutsa' and name-calling/product trashing.
Hi, Folks.
Re name-calling and product trashing: Throughout my posts here and at other sites, I have called Komatsu machines 'Kummagutsa'. I am not about to stop using this term just because it gets up the nose of ONE poster on ONE BB who seems to want to put up arguments that many others disagree with and then ignore any and all suggestions that he put up some indisputable proof of his arguments - - - like comparative sales figures.
I began using the name 'Kummagutsa' back in 1973 when all 3 'Kummagutsa' machines on the job that I was then working on got bogged in the same bog hole AT the same time. A D55S loader went down first, a D60A dozer sunk trying to rescue it and another D60A did the submarine thing trying to rescue those two. It took a Terex 82-30 dozer to get them all out. There wasn't a Cat machine on that job.
I do not believe that Kummagutsa products are trash or junk, at least until they wear out which, unfortunately, they seem to do quicker than similar machines produced by their main competitor. I have actually enjoyed operating several Kummagutsa machines, notably a GD825 grader. However, I do see that some Kummagutsa machines have some design faults and I will not back down from listing and describing those faults. I also don't believe that they have the length of service life engineered into them that their main competitor seems to have.
That is not to say that other manufacturer's machines don't have design faults. They do but that Kummagutsa loader linkage one is the longest-running design flaw that I think I have ever seen in any machine if, as I suspect, it is a hangover from the old Hough loaders. I do have to admit that I have not yet operated a Kummagutsa loader built since about 2004 so they may have changed it without seeking my permission and/or without telling me. How dare they???????????
As for pen friends in Australia who send photos and details of the mostly Kummagutsa dozers chaining down here, I don't know what 10 square mile part of Australia that might have been in but I stand by what I said earlier about only ever having seen 2 Kummagutsa dozers engaged in chaining work. And I either did chaining or saw it done in 3 states over 30 years before it was mostly stopped.
Now I am not saying that the gentleman who claims to have the pen friend DownUnder is a liar - far from it. I just dispute the claim that Kummagutsa was the preferred machine for chaining and I have the evidence of my own eyes, which were actually there on the front of my face looking at it, to tell me that this was NOT the case anywhere that I did or saw it.
As stated elsewhere, my main aim on this site and others where I post is to share my 40+ years of knowledge and experience with those who have less of either or both as I see no point in spending 40+ years gathering the knowledge and experience and then taking it all to the grave with me.
I try at all times to present the truth of the matter, to the best of my knowledge. If this should happen to upset some people, I don't see that as being my problem since I don't deliberately set out to upset people, only bring out the truth to the best of my knowledge and understanding. And I am always open to correction. You see, I reckon if I ever stop learning, I'll be dead from the neck up.
Hi, Folks.
Re name-calling and product trashing: Throughout my posts here and at other sites, I have called Komatsu machines 'Kummagutsa'. I am not about to stop using this term just because it gets up the nose of ONE poster on ONE BB who seems to want to put up arguments that many others disagree with and then ignore any and all suggestions that he put up some indisputable proof of his arguments - - - like comparative sales figures.
I began using the name 'Kummagutsa' back in 1973 when all 3 'Kummagutsa' machines on the job that I was then working on got bogged in the same bog hole AT the same time. A D55S loader went down first, a D60A dozer sunk trying to rescue it and another D60A did the submarine thing trying to rescue those two. It took a Terex 82-30 dozer to get them all out. There wasn't a Cat machine on that job.
I do not believe that Kummagutsa products are trash or junk, at least until they wear out which, unfortunately, they seem to do quicker than similar machines produced by their main competitor. I have actually enjoyed operating several Kummagutsa machines, notably a GD825 grader. However, I do see that some Kummagutsa machines have some design faults and I will not back down from listing and describing those faults. I also don't believe that they have the length of service life engineered into them that their main competitor seems to have.
That is not to say that other manufacturer's machines don't have design faults. They do but that Kummagutsa loader linkage one is the longest-running design flaw that I think I have ever seen in any machine if, as I suspect, it is a hangover from the old Hough loaders. I do have to admit that I have not yet operated a Kummagutsa loader built since about 2004 so they may have changed it without seeking my permission and/or without telling me. How dare they???????????
As for pen friends in Australia who send photos and details of the mostly Kummagutsa dozers chaining down here, I don't know what 10 square mile part of Australia that might have been in but I stand by what I said earlier about only ever having seen 2 Kummagutsa dozers engaged in chaining work. And I either did chaining or saw it done in 3 states over 30 years before it was mostly stopped.
Now I am not saying that the gentleman who claims to have the pen friend DownUnder is a liar - far from it. I just dispute the claim that Kummagutsa was the preferred machine for chaining and I have the evidence of my own eyes, which were actually there on the front of my face looking at it, to tell me that this was NOT the case anywhere that I did or saw it.
As stated elsewhere, my main aim on this site and others where I post is to share my 40+ years of knowledge and experience with those who have less of either or both as I see no point in spending 40+ years gathering the knowledge and experience and then taking it all to the grave with me.
I try at all times to present the truth of the matter, to the best of my knowledge. If this should happen to upset some people, I don't see that as being my problem since I don't deliberately set out to upset people, only bring out the truth to the best of my knowledge and understanding. And I am always open to correction. You see, I reckon if I ever stop learning, I'll be dead from the neck up.
Sorry I haven't responded sooner. Been swamped at work.
575: " What state or country are those 275 large dozers in?"
I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah. The project I'm working on is just outside Park City.
"Do you think maybe the reason the Komatsu's break more is because the mechanics just don't like them and haphazzardly repair them?"
I don't believe that to be the case. We have four mechanics on-site full time. One of them is the company's master mechanic. He's the one who pushes hard with the owner to buy Komatsu dozers and not CAT's.
He thinks he can prove to the operators that Komatsu's are better. Because of this he's hell-bent on the machines running better than our CAT's.
That doesn't happen and has kind of become a joke on the job.
One of the other mechanics we hired from our local Komatsu dealer where he'd worked as a mechanic for them for 8 years.
He knows Komatsu's like the back of his hand and in his opinion, when it comes to dozers, Komatsu's can't stand alongside a CAT. I agree with him on that.
I've had the opportunity to operate D61's all the way up to 575's. I've run every size CAT dozer. The Komatsu's have their place.
The D65, D85 and D155 are finishing machines if there ever was one. A D5 or D6 will struggle to keep up when doing light, accurate finishing work.
In long pushes in soft material, a 575 will out push a D11. But when you weigh all the other pros and cons of both machines. I'll take the D11 any day.
I've been on a few jobs with extremely tight deadlines and was glad I had CAT equipment to back me up.
I was the grading foreman on an international airport runway widening project. I had fourteen 631's, two D10's pushing and a D9 ripping, that had to move 15,500 yards of material in 10 hours during an extremely tight schedule while jets were diverted to another runway. Haul distances were 1750-1900 feet.
Those machines were pushed extremely hard in very tough conditions and I had my fingers crossed the whole time nothing broke down. Had just one dozer gone down, the window to get the work done would have been lost.
I work with Komatsu dozers daily and they break down, daily.
One phase of the project I'm on is 5 1/2 weeks behind schedule because the two dozers that have been working it have broken down so many times. One machine has 8500 hours, the other 2100. There's no excuse for their performance.
The amount of money they've cost the company in down time would have paid to buy equivalent sized CAT machines up front.
Simply put; when it comes to dozers, I prefer CAT.
575: " What state or country are those 275 large dozers in?"
I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah. The project I'm working on is just outside Park City.
"Do you think maybe the reason the Komatsu's break more is because the mechanics just don't like them and haphazzardly repair them?"
I don't believe that to be the case. We have four mechanics on-site full time. One of them is the company's master mechanic. He's the one who pushes hard with the owner to buy Komatsu dozers and not CAT's.
He thinks he can prove to the operators that Komatsu's are better. Because of this he's hell-bent on the machines running better than our CAT's.
That doesn't happen and has kind of become a joke on the job.
One of the other mechanics we hired from our local Komatsu dealer where he'd worked as a mechanic for them for 8 years.
He knows Komatsu's like the back of his hand and in his opinion, when it comes to dozers, Komatsu's can't stand alongside a CAT. I agree with him on that.
I've had the opportunity to operate D61's all the way up to 575's. I've run every size CAT dozer. The Komatsu's have their place.
The D65, D85 and D155 are finishing machines if there ever was one. A D5 or D6 will struggle to keep up when doing light, accurate finishing work.
In long pushes in soft material, a 575 will out push a D11. But when you weigh all the other pros and cons of both machines. I'll take the D11 any day.
I've been on a few jobs with extremely tight deadlines and was glad I had CAT equipment to back me up.
I was the grading foreman on an international airport runway widening project. I had fourteen 631's, two D10's pushing and a D9 ripping, that had to move 15,500 yards of material in 10 hours during an extremely tight schedule while jets were diverted to another runway. Haul distances were 1750-1900 feet.
Those machines were pushed extremely hard in very tough conditions and I had my fingers crossed the whole time nothing broke down. Had just one dozer gone down, the window to get the work done would have been lost.
I work with Komatsu dozers daily and they break down, daily.
One phase of the project I'm on is 5 1/2 weeks behind schedule because the two dozers that have been working it have broken down so many times. One machine has 8500 hours, the other 2100. There's no excuse for their performance.
The amount of money they've cost the company in down time would have paid to buy equivalent sized CAT machines up front.
Simply put; when it comes to dozers, I prefer CAT.
Dozer575
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2007
- Messages
- 274
- Location
- Seattle, wa
- Occupation
- Machinist and occasional pt Dozer oper
The Cat break down daily as well.
Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's.
And about Cats breaking down.
Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's.
And about Cats breaking down.
Deas Plant
Senior Member
Cat Vs Komatsu
Hi, Komatsu D575.
Several weeks ago I suggested to you that you present proof of your arguments that Kummagutsa was outdoing Cat in sales figures, or at least in the their percentage increase over the last 12 months - or 2 years - or 10 years. You have so far failed to do so. This leads me to suspect that you can not do so and that all your arguments are based on sentiment and NOT fact.
In fact, I'd BET on the sentiment-based argument bit. You see, all the word that I'm hearing is that Kummagutsa is indeed coming a gutsa in the sales race, at least here in DownUnder. Their service record is not the least of their worries either. They don't seem to have enough field mechanics to handle the demand and they are continally having to FLY parts in from distant places to meet customer's needs.
F'rinstance, a Kummagutsa dump truck, and not even a BIG one, blew a steering pump several weeks ago on a job that I was on. This failure happened about 11.00 am on a Thursday. The truck was NOT up and running again until mid-morning the FOLLOWING Wednesday - - - - 'cos the parts had to come from some distant place.
On top of that I have heard that at least one major quarry chain DownUnder has cancelled its purchase contract with Kummagutsa and gone back to Cat and other customers are considering similar moves. Another major quarry chain bought a WA 500 loader for use as a sales loader about 15 months ago. I'm told it will be the ONE and ONLY.
Does all of that look to you like a manufacturer in ascendancy. If it does, please tell me where you buy your rose-coloured glasses so that I don't make the mistake of going there.
Hi, Komatsu D575.
Several weeks ago I suggested to you that you present proof of your arguments that Kummagutsa was outdoing Cat in sales figures, or at least in the their percentage increase over the last 12 months - or 2 years - or 10 years. You have so far failed to do so. This leads me to suspect that you can not do so and that all your arguments are based on sentiment and NOT fact.
In fact, I'd BET on the sentiment-based argument bit. You see, all the word that I'm hearing is that Kummagutsa is indeed coming a gutsa in the sales race, at least here in DownUnder. Their service record is not the least of their worries either. They don't seem to have enough field mechanics to handle the demand and they are continally having to FLY parts in from distant places to meet customer's needs.
F'rinstance, a Kummagutsa dump truck, and not even a BIG one, blew a steering pump several weeks ago on a job that I was on. This failure happened about 11.00 am on a Thursday. The truck was NOT up and running again until mid-morning the FOLLOWING Wednesday - - - - 'cos the parts had to come from some distant place.
On top of that I have heard that at least one major quarry chain DownUnder has cancelled its purchase contract with Kummagutsa and gone back to Cat and other customers are considering similar moves. Another major quarry chain bought a WA 500 loader for use as a sales loader about 15 months ago. I'm told it will be the ONE and ONLY.
Does all of that look to you like a manufacturer in ascendancy. If it does, please tell me where you buy your rose-coloured glasses so that I don't make the mistake of going there.
Dozer575: "The Cat break down daily as well."
That may be true elsewhere, but it doesn't mirror my experience. I've worked for three companies that require hourly equipment/crew reports. This has given me a huge pool of information to draw from in regards to equipment performance. The CAT's spend a lot more time operating than the Komatsu's according to this data.
Dozer575: "Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's. And about Cats breaking down."
I don't need to. I work on a job with a dozen of both brands daily. I currently have to account [hourly] for the performance of a D8RII, a D-155AX-5, a D10T and a Komatsu D375A.
I know what I see firsthand. And like I mentioned earlier, I've worked for two previous companies that require hourly equipment reports from the operators and foreman's.
I've had the privelege of reviewing my own monthly/yearly spec's from my own crews as well as those throughout the company.
I've based my opinions of machine performance on that, as well as my firsthand experience, not supposition or conjecture.
That may be true elsewhere, but it doesn't mirror my experience. I've worked for three companies that require hourly equipment/crew reports. This has given me a huge pool of information to draw from in regards to equipment performance. The CAT's spend a lot more time operating than the Komatsu's according to this data.
Dozer575: "Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's. And about Cats breaking down."
I don't need to. I work on a job with a dozen of both brands daily. I currently have to account [hourly] for the performance of a D8RII, a D-155AX-5, a D10T and a Komatsu D375A.
I know what I see firsthand. And like I mentioned earlier, I've worked for two previous companies that require hourly equipment reports from the operators and foreman's.
I've had the privelege of reviewing my own monthly/yearly spec's from my own crews as well as those throughout the company.
I've based my opinions of machine performance on that, as well as my firsthand experience, not supposition or conjecture.
to put my 2 cents worth in I personally prefer the big cats the komatsus are ok in a certain application. Now a common theme seems to be that every body wants proof of which is better, so here is my opion and proof,
I work in one of the largest coal mines in Australia and of the 35 odd bulldozers onsite(including contractors) there is not a single komatsu dozer on site, that is not to say we have not tried komatsus we had 3x 475s only 2 were in service as the other died at about 17000hrs completly buggered not worth the rebuild so it was used for parts to keep the others going, this is not to say they are junk, a 475 WILL out push a D11 in good dirt but try using a 475 in the pit and you are asking for trouble they are not as nimble on there feet as a D11 and at the end of the day you can still walk off a cat but after a long night on a 475 I found that I was worn out and sore all over. We had a new 475XT on trial for a 1000hrs and were given the option to buy at a very very good price but knocked it back as all the operators gave it the thumbs down.
So there is good and bad for both brands but operator acceptance initial cost and dealer support are the big issues and I know that cat wins hands down in two of these catagories, If I had to choose I would pick the D11 for versatility reliabilty and operator comfort thats just my opion
So D575 I ask how many large scale open cut mine sites are exclusivly Komatsu?????
Just a footnote how good are the D10Ts, I got to spend a full shift on one the other night and I was impressed to no end! I reckon they are bloody awsome!!!:notworthy
I hope my experience has answered some questions and not thrown fuel on the fire!!
I work in one of the largest coal mines in Australia and of the 35 odd bulldozers onsite(including contractors) there is not a single komatsu dozer on site, that is not to say we have not tried komatsus we had 3x 475s only 2 were in service as the other died at about 17000hrs completly buggered not worth the rebuild so it was used for parts to keep the others going, this is not to say they are junk, a 475 WILL out push a D11 in good dirt but try using a 475 in the pit and you are asking for trouble they are not as nimble on there feet as a D11 and at the end of the day you can still walk off a cat but after a long night on a 475 I found that I was worn out and sore all over. We had a new 475XT on trial for a 1000hrs and were given the option to buy at a very very good price but knocked it back as all the operators gave it the thumbs down.
So there is good and bad for both brands but operator acceptance initial cost and dealer support are the big issues and I know that cat wins hands down in two of these catagories, If I had to choose I would pick the D11 for versatility reliabilty and operator comfort thats just my opion
So D575 I ask how many large scale open cut mine sites are exclusivly Komatsu?????
Just a footnote how good are the D10Ts, I got to spend a full shift on one the other night and I was impressed to no end! I reckon they are bloody awsome!!!:notworthy
I hope my experience has answered some questions and not thrown fuel on the fire!!
More fuel to the debate 16H... good on yer mate...
So what's your outfits normal process for large dozer mid-life rebuild 16H?
Generally in Canada we would expect a D375/D10 or D475/D11 to run to around 12,000 hrs before overhaul which is the most cost-effective way of ensuring major components can be overhauled at minimal expense and operating cost-per-hour can be controlled. It can be pushed out further based on actual experience when components are analysed and a better understanding of component condition can be made.
No matter how well a part is made, its very hard to determine turbocharger, or injector life and a defective injector can wipe out an engine in hours, just as a steering clutch plate can take out a transmission in a similar period.
By the way 475XT... what is that as we don't have them over here to my knowledge.
I think they try to do a mid life at around 15000 but if the machine is still going well they will try to get every last hr out of it! we have 2 D11s that have nearly 30000 on them they have had a full change out of componets and they just keep going!! one of the old girls I regard as the best pushing dozer on site this particular machine works a prestrip dump with a heap of 797s running at it.
The 475XT was a field trial machine the under carrige was a new design that was being tried, this machine was trialed at a few diffrent coal mines in QLD but never really took hold, It wasnt a bad machine I didnt spend much time in it but I wasnt impressed for a brand new machine It did seem a bit plasticy in side the cab and I think it would be lucky to last 10000hrs, it certainly looked the part but I dont think it would last in our harsh mining environment, or the rough treatment by some of our so called operators!
Like I said earlier Im not trying to fuel the fire, just my opion from what I have seen and done, for straight forward bulk pushing komatsus are great just not in the pits or around excavators. that being said we have recieved our 3rd carry dozer which I am told are worth $600000 more than a normal D11 (not sure just what I have been told!):beatsme
The 475XT was a field trial machine the under carrige was a new design that was being tried, this machine was trialed at a few diffrent coal mines in QLD but never really took hold, It wasnt a bad machine I didnt spend much time in it but I wasnt impressed for a brand new machine
It did seem a bit plasticy in side the cab and I think it would be lucky to last 10000hrs, it certainly looked the part but I dont think it would last in our harsh mining environment, or the rough treatment by some of our so called operators!Like I said earlier Im not trying to fuel the fire, just my opion from what I have seen and done, for straight forward bulk pushing komatsus are great just not in the pits or around excavators. that being said we have recieved our 3rd carry dozer which I am told are worth $600000 more than a normal D11 (not sure just what I have been told!):beatsme
Deas Plant
Senior Member
To fuel or not to fuel
Hi, 16H.
Welcome to the 'Great Debate. Who cares if your comments throw fuel on some people's fires so long as they are the truth?
What you have said is what I keep hearing from up your way (I'm down in the South-East.) and bears out what I see all around me down here. The general consensus seems to be that Kummagutsa has only about 2/3 the working life of the equivalent Cat to first re-build.
There HAS to be a reason or reasons why there are SO MANY Cat machines on so many jobs and so few Kummagutsas. And most of the Kummagutsas that I do see seem to be excavators.
There are a lot of people around who like theKummagutsa excavators and I have to agree that they are not bad. However, back in 1990, I was running a Kato 1880 Mk 2 which had spent most of its working life with a set of demolition shears doing demolition and processing scrap steel. At the time of this little story, it had around 6,500 hours on it. The same company also had a PC400 excavtor with about 3,000 hours.
Everybody ('cept me) reckoned the PC400 was far and away the better machine - - - - - until we had them working opposite sides of the same drainage ditch. Then it soon became obvious that the only thing the Kummagutsa PC400 could do better than the Kato 1880 was walk. I was digging 5 buckets to his 4 ALL the time and 4 buckets to his 3 a lot of the time and I wasn't skating all over the place while doing it. The Kummagutsa operator had to continually reposition his machine 'cos it kep skating toward his digging area. And I can tell you that it was the machine, not the operator, that was responsible for the skating 'cos we swapped machines for a while and I couldn't get back on the Kato quick enough. It performed every function except walking faster and with more power than the PC400.
This doesn't have a lot to with D11s or Kummagutsa D475s but it does show that people's perceptions are not always right.
Hi, 16H.
Welcome to the 'Great Debate. Who cares if your comments throw fuel on some people's fires so long as they are the truth?
What you have said is what I keep hearing from up your way (I'm down in the South-East.) and bears out what I see all around me down here. The general consensus seems to be that Kummagutsa has only about 2/3 the working life of the equivalent Cat to first re-build.
There HAS to be a reason or reasons why there are SO MANY Cat machines on so many jobs and so few Kummagutsas. And most of the Kummagutsas that I do see seem to be excavators.
There are a lot of people around who like theKummagutsa excavators and I have to agree that they are not bad. However, back in 1990, I was running a Kato 1880 Mk 2 which had spent most of its working life with a set of demolition shears doing demolition and processing scrap steel. At the time of this little story, it had around 6,500 hours on it. The same company also had a PC400 excavtor with about 3,000 hours.
Everybody ('cept me) reckoned the PC400 was far and away the better machine - - - - - until we had them working opposite sides of the same drainage ditch. Then it soon became obvious that the only thing the Kummagutsa PC400 could do better than the Kato 1880 was walk. I was digging 5 buckets to his 4 ALL the time and 4 buckets to his 3 a lot of the time and I wasn't skating all over the place while doing it. The Kummagutsa operator had to continually reposition his machine 'cos it kep skating toward his digging area. And I can tell you that it was the machine, not the operator, that was responsible for the skating 'cos we swapped machines for a while and I couldn't get back on the Kato quick enough. It performed every function except walking faster and with more power than the PC400.
This doesn't have a lot to with D11s or Kummagutsa D475s but it does show that people's perceptions are not always right.
I have some extensive dealings with D11R, D11RCD, Komatsu 475 and the 575
I was a service manage for a Komatsu dealer in the US then became the Training Manager/Technical Coordinator. I have spent the last 8 1/2 years working as the Maintenance Coordinator for a surface mining company where we have a 4 D11R's and a D11RCD. When I was at the Komatsu dealer I was in charge of the first D575CD to be built. We also had more D575's than any other dealer in the world. We had more D475's than all the other dealers combined at one time.
I think which one is better is truly determined by what YOU want to make of it. We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out. And I am talking about tractors that were running with 20,000 hours and above. We had tractors on jobs where the mechanics or operators felt like "this is Japanese Junk" and they are taking our jobs. On those jobs, they did not perform as well. They would run the machine till it wouldn't move before telling anyone about a problem. But, given an equal opportunity, the differences between the D11R and the D475-5 will be in your personal perception.
I have read where people expect to rebuild engines at 12,000 hours. Either Tractor has the ability to make that number. I am running 5 D11's now. I have one that has 43,000 hours on it. The engine has been rebuild once, at 27,940 hours. The transmission was built at 20,000 hours. I normally see more than 20,000 hours out of our D11 engines, WITHOUT losing the core.
I have 777's running with 43,000 plus on the engines and still having great oil samples and running great.
My point is, with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal.
Also something to think about, Komatsu is offering some impressive warranties on new mining equipment right now. And equally impressive exchange components. When you look at the cost per hour, and Komatsu will put it in writing, they will guarantee it to be less than Cat. Not something that can be done if their product doesn't perform.
I was a service manage for a Komatsu dealer in the US then became the Training Manager/Technical Coordinator. I have spent the last 8 1/2 years working as the Maintenance Coordinator for a surface mining company where we have a 4 D11R's and a D11RCD. When I was at the Komatsu dealer I was in charge of the first D575CD to be built. We also had more D575's than any other dealer in the world. We had more D475's than all the other dealers combined at one time.
I think which one is better is truly determined by what YOU want to make of it. We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out. And I am talking about tractors that were running with 20,000 hours and above. We had tractors on jobs where the mechanics or operators felt like "this is Japanese Junk" and they are taking our jobs. On those jobs, they did not perform as well. They would run the machine till it wouldn't move before telling anyone about a problem. But, given an equal opportunity, the differences between the D11R and the D475-5 will be in your personal perception.
I have read where people expect to rebuild engines at 12,000 hours. Either Tractor has the ability to make that number. I am running 5 D11's now. I have one that has 43,000 hours on it. The engine has been rebuild once, at 27,940 hours. The transmission was built at 20,000 hours. I normally see more than 20,000 hours out of our D11 engines, WITHOUT losing the core.
I have 777's running with 43,000 plus on the engines and still having great oil samples and running great.
My point is, with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal.
Also something to think about, Komatsu is offering some impressive warranties on new mining equipment right now. And equally impressive exchange components. When you look at the cost per hour, and Komatsu will put it in writing, they will guarantee it to be less than Cat. Not something that can be done if their product doesn't perform.
Countryboy
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 3,276
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- Georgia
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- Load Out Tech. / Heavy Equipment Operator / Locomo
Welcome to HEF Komat04! :drinkup
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Komat04!!:drinkup
Thanks for the fine post! We've been waiting for a reply like yours for quite some time now and I appreciate your honest input.:thumbsup
Thanks for the fine post! We've been waiting for a reply like yours for quite some time now and I appreciate your honest input.:thumbsup
I would echo that Steve, you don't get much better exposure to both sides of the large dozer business than that :notworthy
surfer-joe
Senior Member
Interesting post from komat04. I probably know him from my time in Kentucky and West Virginia in the coal mines.
I ran my first Komatsu in 1971 outside Denver, Colorado. It was a 155A with the Jap Cummins engine. It was a powerful machine, much better than a D8 at both ripping and dozing. It was also slightly larger than the 8, made that way on purpose. But that tractor couldn't be run at full power more than a couple of minutes as it would seriously overheat. Knowing what I know now, I suspect that a simple adjustment to the fuel system would have taken care of the problem albeit maybe at slightly lower power.
I ran that thing for about a month, then a deputy sheriff showed up one day and wanted to know if it was mine. I hastily assured him it wasn't and told him who it did belong to. He made a couple of calls and before long a lo-boy showed up and hauled it away. Turns out the machine had been stolen in Salt Lake City just before I started running it. The outfit I was working for at the time was a mafia front contractor out of Colorado Springs, a fact I didn't find out for quite a while.
On the east coast in the eighties I ran into more Komatsu's. Construction was going so good you just couldn't find enough machines of any kind to buy or rent. I tried the Komatsu grader in Maryland, did not work well. Did use some little D31's and Dresser TD8's to finish a road job as the Cat D3"s we had kept burning the nylon plugs out of the differential cases and would lose all their oil. The state DOT didn't like all that oil on their nice clean sandy slopes. The TD8's really saved our butts though. They ran every day -- all day.
We were desperate on a dam project in New Jersey a year later for iron, but the operating engineers local there weren't of a mind to allow Komatsu's on the project. They heard I was looking at renting a new Liebherr and raised holy hell. My boss and I found some old Cat D9's and 8's, and then spent a fortune trying to keep them running for our two-shift seven day a week operation.
Over to western Pennsylvania I needed some low-ground pressure cats in a D6 size. Beckwith managed some but ran out so I rented a D65 Komatsu from Anderson's. It worked OK, but damned if it didn't have an overheating problem and it used fuel at prodigious rates. Anderson never did get it right and out of the half dozen or so LGP's I had, it was the first to be let go as work slowed down. The sales and rental manager at Beckwith went nuts when he found out we rented the Komatsu and nearly fired his entire sales force over it. The next two LGP 6's we got from them were traded from a dealer in Ohio for a couple of new D9's and a new 16G. He vowed we would never have to rent a Komatsu again in his territory.
From there to western Colorado to a uranium tailings disposal project I soon went. The contractor there had several Komatsu 355's surplused from a gold mine project in southern Colorado and one or two from up in Montana or Idaho. We were trying to push Cat 651B's with these tired and underpowered old girls plus doze and rip in some of the nastiest rocky soil I've ever encountered. The final drives couldn't stay together and neither did the engines and we gave up trying to patch them. Soon to arrive was a well worn Cat D10 pushcat, some D9H's and a couple of newer D8N's. The 10 needed a lot of TLC before it went to work and during it's sojourn with us for the next year. Between engine, transmission, finals, brakes, final drives and hardbar I probably put over $200,000 in it, but once it was spruced up, it pushed like nobodies business. That Cat had somewhere over 35000 hours on it at the time, and I would cross paths with it again a few years later.
This job also used some new Komatsu WA600 loaders and two new PC650 excavators, plus a couple of Dresser 560's. We had good luck with the 600's other than some minor problems. The 560's also were a fine machine, fast and powerful, more so than the 600's. There was one D65 that gave us problems with the transmission, a fairly low hour machine. We swapped it out for a TD15 finally. The 600 loaders impressed me as I was pretty familiar with Cat 988's. For one thing the center pins held up much better as did the loader arm pins and bushings. The cabs were also better and tighter, even after several thousand hours of work. I had to cut the buckets apart at the end of their time with us as radioactive material had gotten inside the interior spaces and the DOE wouldn't let them off the site untill we cleaned them out.
One of the PC650's was always weak and troublesome and the local dealer and our own in-house dealer people never did make it right.
To West Virginia then and another strip mine. There were several Komatsu D375's with varying hours in use from about 4000 up to 8500. They were down a lot with minor and major problems and the mine was way behind on reclamation. We brought in six new Cat D9N's and all of a sudden the Komatsu's were dead meat. The operators were a little skittish at first with the high-sprockets on steep slopes, but soon felt fully confident with them.
I had four or five Komatsu end-dumps in the 777 Cat size there, again not very reliable and the brakes were plumb dangerous for a hill-top mine operation. These were to run with some old 777B Cat's, but couldn't. There were a couple of Cat D11's there, I'd get some stick time once in a while on them when they were way out away from everyone else. The UMW was all hate and discontent about supervision operating the equipment. Further note on getting rid of the Komatsu's, nobody wanted them for any reason, either for sale or trade. Cat Financial wouldn't touch them. We finally shipped them off to an auction somewhere in Ohio and they didn't draw enough to pay for the lo-boys. Rish Equipment, the Komatsu dealer, did their best for us for us and were a fairly large and well stocked operation. But there wasn't a thing they could do to persuade us to take on more Komatsu dozers.
Back west to New Mexico with Peter Kiewit, but no Komatsu's there. Then north to Nevada gold mine tailings pond construction. No Komatsu's there for that, but the old D10 from Grand Junction showed up with some 651E Cat's to push. The boys doing the mine ex across the road had some WA800 Komatsu loaders, and a 600 or two. The haul trucks were early 785 Cat's. Dozers were all Cat's.
From there to Kennecott Copper near Salt Lake City. we used a WA600 loader and some PC400 excavators doing environmental remediation work. The 400's were a nice machine, but did not have the power I expected them to. My old friend the troublesome PC650 showed up from where it had been working in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, it was in even worse shape than when I had last seen it two years before in Colorado. (the company sold the good one just before we put in a call for it.) Ultimately spent $180,000 and just about had it returned to a nice productive condition when we had to turn it over to another tailings project the company got near the Salt Lake. They used it in various places and then drowned it in a pond just down from the main copper slag pile. It took those guys a week to get it out and by that time the highly acidic water had ruined the on-board computer and all the electrical wiring. The hydraulic system and engine had also filled with water by that time and I don't suppose were in to good of shape either. That was one hard luck machine. We replaced it after the other job took it over with a new Cat 375, a real dream machine. Big, smooth, powerful, and fast. We set a lot of 13000 pound concrete pipe with it.
On to California and a road job in Fresno. No Komatsu's there, but lots of Cat dozers including a D11 pushcat and a dozen 651E's. I got out of management for a while and ran a D8N pulling a Rome disc for a while, then switched out the 8 for an old, I mean really old 660 Cat tractor. This old monster was, I think, about a 1964 issue and it finally busted a exhaust valve and the 9-speed went bad at the same time. Eventually got a Challenger 85D and finished the season with it ahead of the disc. I ran everything else on the job at one time or another including 637E push-pulls and water-wagons. Both of which are young-men's machines I will mention.
Moving on to Bakersfield I got involved with an oilfield contractor working in three states. The owner had better sense than to buy Komatsu's though he had a soft spot in his heart for old Cat pipelayers. One note about southern California and the Komatsu dealer there. They fell apart and in Bakersfield anyway, are now headquartered at the Cummins Engine shop. They never sold many Komatsu's in the Grand Valley anyway. Quinn Tractor tore them up in agriculture and earthmoving.
Some Komatsu machines, loaders and excavators mainly, are pretty decent if nothing that one wants to rebuild and go on with. I don't like the dozers or graders or RT backhoes. Parts and service are a problem as even after nearly thirty years of trying, Komatsu still does not have a dealer/manufacturer setup half as good as Caterpillar. Komatsu never could build a reliable or productive haul truck so they bought Dresser/Wabco and I guess that isn't working out too badly now, though they sure had their troubles early on. I've only seen two Komatsu scrapers in all of America and they were a disaster. Komatsu bought Moxy to get some artic-truck experience, but I haven't heard how their own designs are doing now since the divorce. Same with Komatsu and Demag, and Demag had problems all their own when Komatsu got involved.
Any contractor in America won't go far wrong with Cat, Deere, Case, or other American made equipment. You get more up front for the long run with American machines. Cat in particular has always built it's products for the long term, whereas Komatsu decided that new technology would make their products obsolete. They chose -- unwisely...
I ran my first Komatsu in 1971 outside Denver, Colorado. It was a 155A with the Jap Cummins engine. It was a powerful machine, much better than a D8 at both ripping and dozing. It was also slightly larger than the 8, made that way on purpose. But that tractor couldn't be run at full power more than a couple of minutes as it would seriously overheat. Knowing what I know now, I suspect that a simple adjustment to the fuel system would have taken care of the problem albeit maybe at slightly lower power.
I ran that thing for about a month, then a deputy sheriff showed up one day and wanted to know if it was mine. I hastily assured him it wasn't and told him who it did belong to. He made a couple of calls and before long a lo-boy showed up and hauled it away. Turns out the machine had been stolen in Salt Lake City just before I started running it. The outfit I was working for at the time was a mafia front contractor out of Colorado Springs, a fact I didn't find out for quite a while.
On the east coast in the eighties I ran into more Komatsu's. Construction was going so good you just couldn't find enough machines of any kind to buy or rent. I tried the Komatsu grader in Maryland, did not work well. Did use some little D31's and Dresser TD8's to finish a road job as the Cat D3"s we had kept burning the nylon plugs out of the differential cases and would lose all their oil. The state DOT didn't like all that oil on their nice clean sandy slopes. The TD8's really saved our butts though. They ran every day -- all day.
We were desperate on a dam project in New Jersey a year later for iron, but the operating engineers local there weren't of a mind to allow Komatsu's on the project. They heard I was looking at renting a new Liebherr and raised holy hell. My boss and I found some old Cat D9's and 8's, and then spent a fortune trying to keep them running for our two-shift seven day a week operation.
Over to western Pennsylvania I needed some low-ground pressure cats in a D6 size. Beckwith managed some but ran out so I rented a D65 Komatsu from Anderson's. It worked OK, but damned if it didn't have an overheating problem and it used fuel at prodigious rates. Anderson never did get it right and out of the half dozen or so LGP's I had, it was the first to be let go as work slowed down. The sales and rental manager at Beckwith went nuts when he found out we rented the Komatsu and nearly fired his entire sales force over it. The next two LGP 6's we got from them were traded from a dealer in Ohio for a couple of new D9's and a new 16G. He vowed we would never have to rent a Komatsu again in his territory.
From there to western Colorado to a uranium tailings disposal project I soon went. The contractor there had several Komatsu 355's surplused from a gold mine project in southern Colorado and one or two from up in Montana or Idaho. We were trying to push Cat 651B's with these tired and underpowered old girls plus doze and rip in some of the nastiest rocky soil I've ever encountered. The final drives couldn't stay together and neither did the engines and we gave up trying to patch them. Soon to arrive was a well worn Cat D10 pushcat, some D9H's and a couple of newer D8N's. The 10 needed a lot of TLC before it went to work and during it's sojourn with us for the next year. Between engine, transmission, finals, brakes, final drives and hardbar I probably put over $200,000 in it, but once it was spruced up, it pushed like nobodies business. That Cat had somewhere over 35000 hours on it at the time, and I would cross paths with it again a few years later.
This job also used some new Komatsu WA600 loaders and two new PC650 excavators, plus a couple of Dresser 560's. We had good luck with the 600's other than some minor problems. The 560's also were a fine machine, fast and powerful, more so than the 600's. There was one D65 that gave us problems with the transmission, a fairly low hour machine. We swapped it out for a TD15 finally. The 600 loaders impressed me as I was pretty familiar with Cat 988's. For one thing the center pins held up much better as did the loader arm pins and bushings. The cabs were also better and tighter, even after several thousand hours of work. I had to cut the buckets apart at the end of their time with us as radioactive material had gotten inside the interior spaces and the DOE wouldn't let them off the site untill we cleaned them out.
One of the PC650's was always weak and troublesome and the local dealer and our own in-house dealer people never did make it right.
To West Virginia then and another strip mine. There were several Komatsu D375's with varying hours in use from about 4000 up to 8500. They were down a lot with minor and major problems and the mine was way behind on reclamation. We brought in six new Cat D9N's and all of a sudden the Komatsu's were dead meat. The operators were a little skittish at first with the high-sprockets on steep slopes, but soon felt fully confident with them.
I had four or five Komatsu end-dumps in the 777 Cat size there, again not very reliable and the brakes were plumb dangerous for a hill-top mine operation. These were to run with some old 777B Cat's, but couldn't. There were a couple of Cat D11's there, I'd get some stick time once in a while on them when they were way out away from everyone else. The UMW was all hate and discontent about supervision operating the equipment. Further note on getting rid of the Komatsu's, nobody wanted them for any reason, either for sale or trade. Cat Financial wouldn't touch them. We finally shipped them off to an auction somewhere in Ohio and they didn't draw enough to pay for the lo-boys. Rish Equipment, the Komatsu dealer, did their best for us for us and were a fairly large and well stocked operation. But there wasn't a thing they could do to persuade us to take on more Komatsu dozers.
Back west to New Mexico with Peter Kiewit, but no Komatsu's there. Then north to Nevada gold mine tailings pond construction. No Komatsu's there for that, but the old D10 from Grand Junction showed up with some 651E Cat's to push. The boys doing the mine ex across the road had some WA800 Komatsu loaders, and a 600 or two. The haul trucks were early 785 Cat's. Dozers were all Cat's.
From there to Kennecott Copper near Salt Lake City. we used a WA600 loader and some PC400 excavators doing environmental remediation work. The 400's were a nice machine, but did not have the power I expected them to. My old friend the troublesome PC650 showed up from where it had been working in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, it was in even worse shape than when I had last seen it two years before in Colorado. (the company sold the good one just before we put in a call for it.) Ultimately spent $180,000 and just about had it returned to a nice productive condition when we had to turn it over to another tailings project the company got near the Salt Lake. They used it in various places and then drowned it in a pond just down from the main copper slag pile. It took those guys a week to get it out and by that time the highly acidic water had ruined the on-board computer and all the electrical wiring. The hydraulic system and engine had also filled with water by that time and I don't suppose were in to good of shape either. That was one hard luck machine. We replaced it after the other job took it over with a new Cat 375, a real dream machine. Big, smooth, powerful, and fast. We set a lot of 13000 pound concrete pipe with it.
On to California and a road job in Fresno. No Komatsu's there, but lots of Cat dozers including a D11 pushcat and a dozen 651E's. I got out of management for a while and ran a D8N pulling a Rome disc for a while, then switched out the 8 for an old, I mean really old 660 Cat tractor. This old monster was, I think, about a 1964 issue and it finally busted a exhaust valve and the 9-speed went bad at the same time. Eventually got a Challenger 85D and finished the season with it ahead of the disc. I ran everything else on the job at one time or another including 637E push-pulls and water-wagons. Both of which are young-men's machines I will mention.
Moving on to Bakersfield I got involved with an oilfield contractor working in three states. The owner had better sense than to buy Komatsu's though he had a soft spot in his heart for old Cat pipelayers. One note about southern California and the Komatsu dealer there. They fell apart and in Bakersfield anyway, are now headquartered at the Cummins Engine shop. They never sold many Komatsu's in the Grand Valley anyway. Quinn Tractor tore them up in agriculture and earthmoving.
Some Komatsu machines, loaders and excavators mainly, are pretty decent if nothing that one wants to rebuild and go on with. I don't like the dozers or graders or RT backhoes. Parts and service are a problem as even after nearly thirty years of trying, Komatsu still does not have a dealer/manufacturer setup half as good as Caterpillar. Komatsu never could build a reliable or productive haul truck so they bought Dresser/Wabco and I guess that isn't working out too badly now, though they sure had their troubles early on. I've only seen two Komatsu scrapers in all of America and they were a disaster. Komatsu bought Moxy to get some artic-truck experience, but I haven't heard how their own designs are doing now since the divorce. Same with Komatsu and Demag, and Demag had problems all their own when Komatsu got involved.
Any contractor in America won't go far wrong with Cat, Deere, Case, or other American made equipment. You get more up front for the long run with American machines. Cat in particular has always built it's products for the long term, whereas Komatsu decided that new technology would make their products obsolete. They chose -- unwisely...
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Komat04: "We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out."
Care to elaborate a little more on that? What were the working conditions? Were there specialized maintenance schedules for these machines due to their work environment? In the time-frame between rebuilds how many operators had seat time on these machines?
While I don't have a lot of experience with 475's (I've only been around/operated three) I have worked with dozens of 375's, 275's and smaller.
I will say that I haven't seen a single Komatsu dozer get past 5,000 hours and run 97% availability, which is why I'm interested in your higher figure.
Komat04: "with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal."
Under indentical working circumstances you feel the Komatsu dozers will perform equally well with CAT dozers after 5,000-6,000 hours?
I've worked on projects that have relied heavily upon Komatsu dozers and even with generous TLC they still didn't offer the availability that the CAT's did in the same situations and with the same maintenance.
PKS/Kiewit tested out Komatsu dozers on some of their mining projects from 2001-2005, kept detailed records of everything (and their equipment is maintained second to none) yet they sold the Komatsu's and went back to a 100% CAT fleet.
When I worked for them I was able to go through a lot of their test results from their Komatsu trials and they cited down-time on the Komatsu's running so much higher on a regular basis over their CAT's that they weren't a viable option for them.
Interesting post surfer-joe. I've worked a lot of the same places that you have and from the sounds of it, have probably even worked with some of the same people.
Care to elaborate a little more on that? What were the working conditions? Were there specialized maintenance schedules for these machines due to their work environment? In the time-frame between rebuilds how many operators had seat time on these machines?
While I don't have a lot of experience with 475's (I've only been around/operated three) I have worked with dozens of 375's, 275's and smaller.
I will say that I haven't seen a single Komatsu dozer get past 5,000 hours and run 97% availability, which is why I'm interested in your higher figure.
Komat04: "with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal."
Under indentical working circumstances you feel the Komatsu dozers will perform equally well with CAT dozers after 5,000-6,000 hours?
I've worked on projects that have relied heavily upon Komatsu dozers and even with generous TLC they still didn't offer the availability that the CAT's did in the same situations and with the same maintenance.
PKS/Kiewit tested out Komatsu dozers on some of their mining projects from 2001-2005, kept detailed records of everything (and their equipment is maintained second to none) yet they sold the Komatsu's and went back to a 100% CAT fleet.
When I worked for them I was able to go through a lot of their test results from their Komatsu trials and they cited down-time on the Komatsu's running so much higher on a regular basis over their CAT's that they weren't a viable option for them.
Interesting post surfer-joe. I've worked a lot of the same places that you have and from the sounds of it, have probably even worked with some of the same people.