JCB Skid Steer

[dave esterns]

well..cnh is the second largest agricultural company worldwide. maybe they r even bigger than jcb i dont know. jcb is ranked 3rd in the world for machine volume in their industry. that is a fact. yes i would say im probably in and out of our skid steer somewhere around 5000 times a year...so a jcb would be sweet. also when getting in a bobcat your tendency is to drop into the seat, which is probably hard on your back etc. my only concern is that our skid steer is always full of mud, manure, etc and i wonder how the door would open and close in those conditions (esp frozen) and i would imagine the bottom of the door would have a tendency to rust out. we run our bobcats between 7 and 9000 hours, and they are worthless at trade in time, so a jcb prolly wouldnt be that much worse there. i would have to price out some parts before any machine purchase i would imagine. am i taking for granted the reliability of a bobcat by assuming a jcb would last just as long? i would imagine we wouldnt ever have to weld on the boom of the jcb like we do the bobcats, contrary to popular belief.

 

[watglen]

I looked at the door too, wondered how long that would last right above the tracks the way it is. Seems too light for where it is located.

 

[xcmark]

I looked at the door too, wondered how long that would last right above the tracks the way it is. Seems too light for where it is located.

so far the paint on mine is good , only needing spot touch up. Its a 2003 model with 1900 hrs , 3 owners.

 

[dave esterns]

so i have been thinking and have decided i have no desire to have any new skid steer unless its a jcb. the more i think about a regular skid steer, the less i like it. buying one would be a little like buying a horse instead of a tractor. regular skids are basically from the stone ages. the only problem with a jcb is they have a monopoly on the monoboom design, and once people find out about how sweet they are, jcb will be able to charge whatever they want for their skid steer because you will be forced to buy jcb because no one else makes such a machine. what really impressed me about the jcb skid steer is they did not bow down to the problematic electric controls. what a sweet move. electric controls just dont work on a skid steer because they are such a unique machine. i commend jcb for sticking with their design and building on it much like they did their fastrack. a lot of companies are quick to dump their innovative machines and go mainstream, basically copying their competition. i feel like jcb since they are a privately owned company has more flexibility and can do things like make a backhoe that does the quarter mile at 90 mph, and set the land speed record with their new engine, because they dont have to listen to their stockholders complain about how that is not profitable. i think jcb should have teamed up with agco rather than volvo for their skid steer, that would have been strategic, they would have had a vast dealer network, and agco would have had a sweet skid steer, which they currently dont offer.

 

[Digdeep]

so i have been thinking and have decided i have no desire to have any new skid steer unless its a jcb. the more i think about a regular skid steer, the less i like it. buying one would be a little like buying a horse instead of a tractor. regular skids are basically from the stone ages. the only problem with a jcb is they have a monopoly on the monoboom design, and once people find out about how sweet they are, jcb will be able to charge whatever they want for their skid steer because you will be forced to buy jcb because no one else makes such a machine. what really impressed me about the jcb skid steer is they did not bow down to the problematic electric controls. what a sweet move. electric controls just dont work on a skid steer because they are such a unique machine. i commend jcb for sticking with their design and building on it much like they did their fastrack. a lot of companies are quick to dump their innovative machines and go mainstream, basically copying their competition. i feel like jcb since they are a privately owned company has more flexibility and can do things like make a backhoe that does the quarter mile at 90 mph, and set the land speed record with their new engine, because they dont have to listen to their stockholders complain about how that is not profitable. i think jcb should have teamed up with agco rather than volvo for their skid steer, that would have been strategic, they would have had a vast dealer network, and agco would have had a sweet skid steer, which they currently dont offer.

Dave...I wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you have firmly convinced yourself that JCB makes the best skid steer known to man You should be in sales.

I do have to admit that IMHO you are a bit all over the board with your reasoning. While JCB is in fact free "to charge whatever they want for their skid steer, I find it very unlikely that they will ever be in any significant market share position of strength to force people to buy their machine...unless of course the customer (such as you in this case) "absolutely has no desire to buy any new skid steer unless its a JCB.

I also tend to disagree with you that "regular skids are basically from the stone ages". JCB is actually finally joining the game that many others already have been playing....variable speed fans, pressurized cabs, flat face/O-ring fittings, tilting cab, am/fm/mp3, etc.

Additionally, I wouldn't say that JCB didn't bow down since I'm pretty sure that the joysticks are now electrical over hydraulic, and I know that the throttle is electronic. It's the wave of the future, not a problem. JCB has decided to finally try to join the market.

It's also very true that private companies can spend money without the constraints that a public company can. However, I'm not so sure how practical a 90mph backhoe is, or a diesel that sets land speed records. Neat things, but has it helped them sell more machines....things that public companies think of first and foremost. You probably remember the Concorde jet....it was jointly built by the English and the French, set air travel records; not quite a land speed record, but bear with me here. It disappeared because it wasn't an economical way to transport people over great distances because people didn't see enough of a perceived value in that mode of travel beyond it being a cool novelty. Reminds me of a 90mph backhoe and a diesel powered dragster...very cool, but still a novelty.

I don't see a fit with AGCO since AGCO doesn't have much exposure to construction or landscapers, but maybe they could sell some to farmers. Good luck with your purchase. You will be one of JCB's stepping stones to market share respectability.

 

[dave esterns]

hahaha...ah yes, well i have to have a little fun...i come on the forums mainly for entertainment. im just going to say some random thoughts. people are creatures of habit, if something is better than what they have they dont necessarily see it. and its hard to convince people of things. i do feel like the loan ranger here since i am a farmer. the skid steer was invented for farmers... and farmers have always been bobcats biggest customer. they have built over 750000 machines, exponentially more than anyone else. maybe construction guys dont have exposure to agco dealers, but i dont see y landscapers wouldnt, most landscapers are just normal people who decided to start a landscaping business. i have actually never understood y the network of construction equipment dealers is so small compared to agricultural dealers. there are probably 25 agricultural dealers selling multiple brands within 40 miles of my house. there is one cat dealer, 0 volvo, 0 komatsu, actually i cant think of one construction dealer within 40 miles of my house, the cat dealer sells ag equipment. so if jcb worked with agco they would have a vast dealer network. i dont see y it is necessary to get all your construction equipment at one dealer anyway. as far as the backhoe that goes 90 and the land speed record, that is just a form of advertisement, which is worth it, i looked twice when i noticed jcb had a land speed record with a diesel. oh i would imagine people will look at jcb when all these skid steers start running urea and jcb doesnt. as far as the electric controls, im not for sure what jcb runs, but i would be less impressed if it was electric. people say you need to embrace change, but that is questionabl if the change is not for the better. so as far as the jcb not making other skids look like they are from the stone ages, that depends on how much emphasis you put on the side entry. actually now that i have thought it over, getting in the front would be just as silly as getting in the top of the machine. i originally thought when i saw the new jcb "ah that actually is a really sweet machine." but never thought about it much after that. then my buddy told me he noticed how sweet they are too so that made me look twice. the minute i looked twice it was like seeing the light, once i saw the light, all of the other skids looked like darkness... its kinda like getting saved. now realistically, when it comes down to it we will choose between a like new s185 for 20k, or a new jcb for 40k probably. so, i do operate the machine 1000 hours a year... if i had employees driving the machine the bobcat would be a no brainer. but since im a farmer and since i work a lot, its hard to say that life is separate from work. so a jcb would increase the quality of my life. i hate to spend an extra 20k for nothing... i guess we will see what happens when i get out the check book. so with agricultural tractors, no one ever looked at jcb... but their 40 mph tractor has definitely changed the industry. john deere and case ih and agco have started making their tractors more like jcb with suspensions and faster road travel speed, although none of them have reached the 43 mph standard jcb has set. i have seen jcb change the tractor industry, im not convinced they wont do the same for skid steers. i also like the idea of them offering a telescoping boom on the skid steer. well bobcat is the one who started the creature comfort idea on a skid steer, when they started offering the free cab and heat a while back...like 8 years. that is most certainly what started the trend. and it took other companies basically till now to match bobcats cab. however bobcat has always lagged with their controls, but that made their machines cheaper, and a lot of people buy based on price. as far as electric controls, howcome cat never released them on their smaller new skids?

 

[OBPM]

I believe it was Compact Equipment Magazine that stated that 1 out of every 4 backhoes sold worldwide are JCB's. I find that hard to believe, but the work is a pretty big place.

 

[OBPM]

World that is.

 

[dave esterns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xeb1NeCT8c

 

[eamon]

jcb if i'm not mistaken as a LIFE TIME warranty on the side arm of the skid steer,they do in the uk, just check with your dealer.
You will love the side arm as in farming you are loading bales and stuff which require you to get out with the bucket raised(not safe on other machines). the front window is handy not to get splashed with muck. Hey i run bobcat cat gehl hitachi and jcb. Cat are good but i'm small fish compared to quarry lads, Bobcat have alot of giggy problems all of which should be sorted under warranty but aren't so we will not run any more, but the service of hitachi and jcb dealer is second to none. Gehl has been excellant although i needed some parts and there was a 4 week delay because manitou has bought them out but an email to gehl in germay and got parts next day.
Get it bought, and enjoy, just check out it's past as with any machine.

 

[dave esterns]

hey guy from the uk. how did u end up on this forum?? it seems to be mostly US and canada on here. i believe hitachi is the same as a new holland skid steer right? i believe fiat owns hitachi? i assume when you talk about bobcats having problems it is mostly with the joysticks? what do yall in the uk think about jcb making the skid steers in the US? are the new jcb skids as big a deal over there as i think they are?

 

[Digdeep]

hey guy from the uk. how did u end up on this forum?? it seems to be mostly US and canada on here. i believe hitachi is the same as a new holland skid steer right? i believe fiat owns hitachi? i assume when you talk about bobcats having problems it is mostly with the joysticks? what do yall in the uk think about jcb making the skid steers in the US? are the new jcb skids as big a deal over there as i think they are?

Hitachi does not brand the New Holland skid steer, nor does Fiat own Hitachi...they own Case/NH. Deere brands Hitachi's mini's.

 

[dave esterns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AEPmpQs88&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AEPmpQs88

there was some confusion earlier as to weather the jcb had electric controls. you can clearly see the hydraulic hoses going to the drive joystick on the new jcb, sweet.

 

[dave esterns]

http://www.agriaffaires.co.uk/used/alias-skid-steer-loader/1/3452/fiat-hitachi.html

 

[Digdeep]

http://www.agriaffaires.co.uk/used/alias-skid-steer-loader/1/3452/fiat-hitachi.html

Look at the year of the machines...those are all at least 6 year old LS models.

 

[JCBiron]

Ok, I will have to chime in here and de-bunk a lot of the rumors out there regarding JCB skids steers....

1) The Powerboom design (formerly known as the monoboom) is, in itself, virtually indestructable. There is (literally) more steel in the single arm than any other competitor, BAR NONE. Also, like stated above, try and get any other manufacturer to warranty their loader arms FOR LIFE to the original owner. Durability is a non-issue. The other point raised here was that visibility is poor out of the right side. I will agree with that, but only for about 10% of the time you are operating the loader (when the boom is at eye level). The other times, JCB's 270 degree visibilty is 33% better than the next closest competitor.

2) It seems that most everyone is comparing and discussing the old series one and current series two machines (JCB just rolled out their next gen machine which was developed from a clean slate). As a JCB dealer, I will admit that we could not compete 50% of the time with our old machines. We didn't have machines that were big enough, we did not have veritcal lift, and we didn't have the fit and finish of a Bobcat or a Cat. The Next Gen Machines address all of those issues and then some, and in a lot of cases, exceede the competition.

3) As far as machine and parts pricing, again, prior to the Next Gen Machines, our parts pricing was a bit out of line (on certain, not all, items). Our machine pricing, while higher than it should have been, was not as high as Cat (in my experience). The criteria for development for the new models was to match Bobcat on pricing, and they succeeded. Now, of course, a lot of this comes down to the dealer itself, so there will be variations on this.

4) The example of resale value on skid steers that was given was compared to Cat. From my experience, the JCB skids were always cheaper than Cat on the front end, and admittedly, not worth quite as much on the back side. With that being said, one of the models referenced above was a 257B. I think anyone who is honest with themselves will admit that these machines had issues: namely, the undercarriage. And most people know it. As a dealer, try trading one in and re-selling it. Not real easy. My point is that every brand, even the mighty Cat, has their own demons.

5) The JCB Skids and Track loaders are balanced 50/50 side to side. This is achieved by offsetting the operator compartment, engine, and drive pumps (under the cab).

6) Bottom line, the Next Gen JCB skids are the real deal (Finally!). JCB took $40 Million and put it where their mouth is. If anyone is curious go to www.jcbvision.com

Now for the rest of the rumors:

World wide, JCB has 49% backhoe market share. A lot of people will say I am full of sh*t, but it's the truth. (33% on telehandlers). They are the 3rd largest construction manufacturer in the world (by volume of units). Now obviously, in North America, that is not the case. Backhoe market share has been as low as 3 or 4%, and as high as 8%. If you want my honest opinion, we have a great machine that just needs a bit of North American-izing.

I will also admit that their dealer network is not up to Bobcat/Deere/Cat standards. However, it is a work in progress and an issue they know needs addressing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it really doesn't matter what brand you own, if you don't have a dealer to support you, you don't have much.

Ok, dismounting from my high horse now!

 

[KSSS]

1. JCB from the start has covered the Monoboom for life likely because of the obvious thoughts that boom could never hold up. On the visibility to the rightside of the machine. I have not run the new machines yet but it would seem that the boom would typically be at eye level during transport. Not sure how you assessed a percentage to that. But having the boom block your view to the right while the boom is at transport height certainly would be an issue.

2. I would respond to this by saying that rolling out a new series does not remove all the demons of old. Unfortunately it takes a long time to do that. Every person who has ever run a JCB and not liked it will continue to associate your skid steer with the one they ran. Its up to the dealers of which there are few to push the machine into demos and let the machine speak for itself. That is even more difficult considering how few machines are moving right now.

3. Resale has much to do with number 2. CAT is not a poster child for resale value in this segment, especially with their MTL's. However JCB's issues stand alone, They have marketed a substandard machine for years, poor dealer network, high parts costs with questionable availability. They have little percieved value new or used. Therefore nobody wants to pay much for them. Again changing that starts with a quality product and moves forward from there.

4. The dealer network is a major issue and one that wont be easily fixed. A company that sells trucks primarily took on the JCB dealership for much of Idaho. While they maybe a good company, and they have at least given JCB a presence here which they have not had for years, it seems like it is a side line for the truck sales company (which I am sure it is), that does not instill a lot of confidence that JCB is here to stay.

5. Being a JCB dealer is no easy task at least in North America. My hats off for coming on here and speaking up for your product.

 

[dave esterns]

well i have said it before. when we buy a skid steer this fall, if jcb comes in at the same price, we will certainly buy the jcb. i was just driving the bobcat an hour ago and wanted to get out... but couldnt... and thought... how sweet it would be to get right out the side. as far as the boom blocking visibility to the side, what do you expect?? at some point the boom is going to be in your line of sight. i fail to see how any competitors have it any better, especially the new case and hew holland machines, where i dont see how you could ever see anything out of. yes, it will take at least ten years for jcb to get any type of name recognition in the us on skid steers at least... but if they are dedicated to doing it, it can be done. personally i think jcb should open factory owned dealers where dealers are scarce. their new machines will sell themselves as well. people will seek out jcb; like me, when someone comes out with something i want, i go get it. i always had respect for the older jcb skids, but the new ones have my attention.

 

[xcmark]

I am glad to see Big Brother is listening and is willing to listen to the small company owners that are in the dirt trying to make a living. My only issue of owning my 1110T was the cost of fatory only parts. JCBiron if you have the time take a look at cost send me a PM for the serial numbers on my machine . you will see what I am talking about. I hope the new machine line is a home run and resale value is good on used machines because many of JCB ideas a great and need to be expanded !


EDIT: My 2003 has pilot controls , not electric over hydro

 

[JCBiron]

1. JCB from the start has covered the Monoboom for life likely because of the obvious thoughts that boom could never hold up. On the visibility to the rightside of the machine. I have not run the new machines yet but it would seem that the boom would typically be at eye level during transport. Not sure how you assessed a percentage to that. But having the boom block your view to the right while the boom is at transport height certainly would be an issue.


2. I would respond to this by saying that rolling out a new series does not remove all the demons of old. Unfortunately it takes a long time to do that. Every person who has ever run a JCB and not liked it will continue to associate your skid steer with the one they ran. Its up to the dealers of which there are few to push the machine into demos and let the machine speak for itself. That is even more difficult considering how few machines are moving right now.

3. Resale has much to do with number 2. CAT is not a poster child for resale value in this segment, especially with their MTL's. However JCB's issues stand alone, They have marketed a substandard machine for years, poor dealer network, high parts costs with questionable availability. They have little percieved value new or used. Therefore nobody wants to pay much for them. Again changing that starts with a quality product and moves forward from there.


4. The dealer network is a major issue and one that wont be easily fixed. A company that sells trucks primarily took on the JCB dealership for much of Idaho. While they maybe a good company, and they have at least given JCB a presence here which they have not had for years, it seems like it is a side line for the truck sales company (which I am sure it is), that does not instill a lot of confidence that JCB is here to stay.

5. Being a JCB dealer is no easy task at least in North America. My hats off for coming on here and speaking up for your product.

The test was done subjectively by Georgia Tech. It was done from the operator's seating position, 360 degrees. It is scientific and factual, and not really an arguable point. What is arguable, is the visibility when the boom is up, which I noted. While the Powerboom is larger than a single arm on a "regular" skid loader, the fact still remains that it impedes visibility just like the JCB, except on both sides, and in most (if not all) cases, so does the torque tube and loader towers on competitive machines.


I would agree with most of this statement. However, it is funny how quickly people can forget "Big 3" demons!

Yes, again. And I would like to stress the last part: Quality Product. That is up to the dealer, but ultimately, tell me how that can happen if, say, a "Case Guy" isn't willing to give something a try (for free no less) and give it an honest evaluation. Parts availability will also be backed by a 48hr-or-its-free guarantee (again, for participating dealers)....So a lot comes down to the dealer.