Dump trucks vs ADTs for pond dig?

[fastline]

Sort of a convoluted thread but basically I'm looking at an old CAT scraper to buy and try in some of this pond stuff. I'm both trying to figure out if this is even remotely a smart idea, or stick to the dump truck deal.

Have a 3000cy pond to dig. I realize only a twin engine or elevating motor scraper has a chance here without a pusher, but also figure a scraper can't actually do it all either. If I go with the dump truck plan, I can load then easily with the excavator and 2.2yd bucket, but my concern is running tandems, with with tags, offroad in a field? It's clay dirt where if I hit it when dry, a loaded semi won't print it, but continuous lapping is likely different. This would start to get expensive if I have to groom a little haul road on the time.

The trip distance is only 800ft.

I should mention, I have zero seat time in a scraper. It would take a little time to learn what works. My other concern with a scraper is getting stuck. the nice thing, I guess, with the trucks is they can just dump, and I can get them moving again.

We really don't have many around here that run ADTs other than on huge jobs. I can call around for rates, and maybe I can load them more and make it pencil out even better? I want to say their offroad speed and hydro speed are quite an upgrade? But to get things running smooth, I need a pair.

 

[Tones]

2 of these gadgets would be real good for what you are doing. Small enough to get 2 of them on 1 trailer, good floatation, good traction and can dump on the run avoiding stopping to reverse to unload etc. 3000cy on a 800ft short haul would be 2 days work for em.

https://www.lectura-specs.com/models/renamed/list_desktop/articulated-dump-trucks-h-912-es-multitip-hydrema.jpeg

 

[Deere500a]

Scraper would be a wrong machine in soft clay, dry has a crust but wheel spin & you & Patrick Swayze are making pottery, excavator & haul trucks are far more productive in that work. Worked dozer on semi dry ponds but back & fourth start pumping water to surface limits the push. No experience but a tracked dump are common nowadays for that work.

 

[AMBMike]

What is the soil like where the pond will be? Is it clay like the haul road? Is it currently wet?

If it's like I understand the haul road to be it sounds like an ideal setup for a tractor and pan. It'll go places a self propelled scraper gets stuck and can maintain it's own haul road if needed. A good operator will be able to cut and shape the entire pond or you can move in a dozer to help shape it. The waste dirt whether piled or graded out can be handled by the tractor and pan on its own or you can have the dozer keep the fill smoothed up if you'd rather.

If you add swell factor to your 3k yd you'll probably be somewhere in the 3900-4000 cu/yd range. A small 14 yd pull pan will need 300-350 cycles to haul that depending on the operater. At 800 feet haul length you should be at around 5 minute/cycle. That comes out to around 30-35 hours with one man and one tractor and pan. That's one 10hr day for a hoe operator and 2 trucks...

Do you currently have the tandem dumps? If so you can do it with them if the dirt supports them. You want good drivers that split their tracks and keep their speed down. I'd also load them light. And it will take some road maintenance. Driven carefully they'll work but the wrong driver will tear the trucks up.

Renting ADTs works too. You can load them heavy and they'll go through some amazing mud if there's a bottom. The cycle times will be shorter than tandems as well but rental costs may eat any time related cost savings, especially on a relatively small project like this.

Just some thoughts...

 

[fastline]

What is the soil like where the pond will be? Is it clay like the haul road? Is it currently wet?

If it's like I understand the haul road to be it sounds like an ideal setup for a tractor and pan. It'll go places a self propelled scraper gets stuck and can maintain it's own haul road if needed. A good operator will be able to cut and shape the entire pond or you can move in a dozer to help shape it. The waste dirt whether piled or graded out can be handled by the tractor and pan on its own or you can have the dozer keep the fill smoothed up if you'd rather.

If you add swell factor to your 3k yd you'll probably be somewhere in the 3900-4000 cu/yd range. A small 14 yd pull pan will need 300-350 cycles to haul that depending on the operater. At 800 feet haul length you should be at around 5 minute/cycle. That comes out to around 30-35 hours with one man and one tractor and pan. That's one 10hr day for a hoe operator and 2 trucks...

Nice reply. Yeah, there is a reason guys local are running a tractor/pan setup. I think they are more reliable, more comfort, power, speed, etc. yes, all clays will be nearly the same, nothing wet or soggy, and I would not be under pressure to push in bad conditions. No point.

As for the hoe, I gotta admit, it's rent free and I don't have to own the haul trucks. If I could get away with using tandem axle road trucks, it would be nice. I can just go brush hog the haul lanes ahead of time.

I've been trying to score a pan a tractor for years. Just never pencils out. A pan 2x the price of a motor scraper, then you need a 500+hp tractor to run it. And they STILL can't do the precision shaping I can do with the hoe.

But I would question the 10hrs for the hoe method. Regardless, you need a little contour time. I generally find that my bulk dig rate x2 is close.

 

[AMBMike]

But I would question the 10hrs for the hoe method.

I wasn't very clear there.
I meant to say that 30 hours or three 10 hr days with the tractor/pan and one man is the same time as one 10 hr day with a hoe, two trucks, and three men.

And they STILL can't do the precision shaping I can do with the hoe.

We ran laser and GPS on our tractor and pan setups and graded building pads, ponds, roads, cut and fill slopes and nearly anything else you'd grade with a dozer. With a good operator and a good grade control setup you may be surprised how fine a grade you can leave behind you. A great operator and grade stakes works too if you can find that...

 

[fastline]

I wasn't very clear there.
I meant to say that 30 hours or three 10 hr days with the tractor/pan and one man is the same time as one 10 hr day with a hoe, two trucks, and three men.



We ran laser and GPS on our tractor and pan setups and graded building pads, ponds, roads, cut and fill slopes and nearly anything else you'd grade with a dozer. With a good operator and a good grade control setup you may be surprised how fine a grade you can leave behind you. A great operator and grade stakes works too if you can find that...

Ha, oh I get it, but my clients are CHEAP! this dig is primarily for the dirt to use. Just dig man! I always get a kick out of the "how much for X acre pond" group. tells me everything.

I guess my reality is a hoe can dig in nearly anything, a pan cannot. But I firmly agree on the extree bennies of a pan. They can dial in grade and smooth stuff as they work. Most retention ponds I',m around are tractor/pan built.

But if I flip back to reality, I too am estimating a 4min round trip time as a marker. the way I try to do ponds, I stay on top and dig out, I never go in. I figured 2 trucks was close enough, 3 would have 3 truckers holding my johnson while I pizz.

But more on the trucks, it really comes down to their ground pressure and if they can really do the thing. ADTs will be hard to source here. Big const has them, but they are using them too. I also can't get that to pencil out well. The hoe would be the only machine onsite to get a truck unstuck, and that is a big deal for hoe time, unless I guess the other dump truck could deal with that. I'd rather plan for that not happening.

Again, dirt is solid when dry, but high psi can do weird things.

 

[AMBMike]

I don't know where in OK you're located but you could check with Van Keppel on renting ADTs. We've rented Volvos from them in the past and were happy with their pricing and service. They were significantly cheaper than renting from Cat.

Hours Oklahoma City | Van Keppel | Kansas City

Van Keppel, with locations in multiple states of America, featuring new and used Heavy Equipment for sale, apparel, and accessories near Gladstone, Mission, Raytown, and Grandview

www.vankeppel.com

 

[terex herder]

If you are digging a pond, what will you do when it rains? Since this sounds like a barrow pit, will it get runoff water, or just rainfall? I think a paddle scraper will load in steep better than the pull pan. Tractor and pan is way more comfortable than a paddle scraper (although the newest paddle wagon I've ran was a 1978).

 

[AMBMike]

I think a paddle scraper will load in steep better than the pull pan.

I've never had the opportunity to run a paddle wheel. I hope I get to sometime. They look like the cats meow for working with a grader...

As far as loading a pull pan on steep cuts, the steeper the cut the faster they load. I've loaded double pull pans on cuts that required a cutting edge dug in at all times just to stay on the slope. You make sure the second pan is cutting before picking up the first. I've also seen tractors pulling 3 pans each loading on downhill cuts that were maintained at 2:1.

 

[nicky 68a]

 

[nicky 68a]

Small tractor and box (pan) would be my choice.
Less machines and,more importantly,less men on the job will be more money left in your wallet