Why you need the "complete story" This will be long, sorry!

[kshansen]

Was not sure where to post this but as it was in a Grove Rough Terrain guess this will do!
Last year was involved in this crane when came to our plant with engine problem. I told them I thought there was some internal problems the way this Detroit sounded. I have overhauled everything from 3-53's to 16V-71's since back in the early 1970's but management now want to farm out most engine work. Outside contractors came in and partially disassembled the 6V-53 in this crane and as I suspected it had one or more bent rods from coolant getting in cylinder from cracked head and or leaking injector tubes. Another branch of our company was allowed to rebuild the engine and after a minor problem with oil pump installation error seemed to run great. Well a few weeks ago I was told the engine was trashed! Then I w as told the guy who had rebuilt it messed up big time and it had mismatched rods and other unexplained problems. Asked if machine was being scrapped, no the outside contractor that had helped remove and re-install it last summer was fixing it. This contractor is one I have lots of faith in, owner is a guy I have know since mid to late 1990's. I was hoping to have a chance to talk to him about it next time I saw him. Well today was my lucky day. I was at a sister plant to work on a D6D Cat and just as I got there this guy was coming down the driveway going the other way. He stopped to say Hi. So I asked him what's the story on that crane engine? He told me that the story about it was last fall where ever it was the "operator" was trying to get it to start and kept putting the starting fluid to it with no luck. They said it had lots of fuel but would not start<?>. Then early this year the contractor was asked to look at it, after it still not starting with lots of starting fluid! Right off he finds the emergency shutdown flapper was tripped!:Banghead That corrected it did start but did not run right. While disassembling he found water in exhaust manifold not sure if any was in cylinders as it had finally run. Further disassembling found a couple bent rods. They did replace all six cylinder kits and replaced rods with a couple good used ones. Now I plan to be sure to tell everyone I can that the problem was not the guy who had rebuilt it but having someone who does not know the proper operation of a machine and people too eager to grab the spray bomb starting fluid. If someone who knew even a little about Detroits had been called in at the first sign of the failure to start it would have taken a few seconds to reset the shutdown flapper and it would have been good to go. Instead I would love to know how many thousands the second repair cost and how many times a crane had to be rented while this one was down for repairs that could have been avoidedointhead But these days management likes to think they can just ship equipment from place to place and anyone who has a crane licence can run them. Days gone by we had dedicated operators for equipment like this.

 

[RZucker]

Wow. Ive seen the emergency shutdown thing more than a few times... And the ether thing too. Idiots. I had a good one last week and Im not even a crane guy. Had a customer call me and he said his Grove RT755 wouldnt retract the boom. I got there and the thing was at zero degrees with all both extensions almost fully extended? outriggers retracted and the rear wheels nearly off the ground. Duh. I reset the outriggers and raised the boom to 60 degrees and it retracted just fine. WTH were they attempting to do? Idiots.
Like I said, I dont do cranes just his scraper/dozer repair.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . kshansen. As you say, it comes down to folks not knowing the equipment.

Lots of folks have been caught out by the tripped intake flap . . . it was once it was a well known foible of the two-strokes and most hands around equipment would know that in any reasonable temperature a Jimmy has to be very sick not to start given it has air and fuel.

Interesting story by the way.

Cheers.

 

[Karl Robbers]

I have nowhere near the experience that many on this forum have, but I've been around a bit, kept my eyes open and asked lots of questions along the way. It nearly brings me to tears the lack of basic problem solving skills exhibited by some operators and unfortunately some mechanics too. Even in an electronic world, the same basics apply. Fuel, air and compression.
The story about the boom that would not retract is a classic. If they cannot understand that concept, then I want to be well away from any crane they are working. I think it is possibly because we have raised a generation that cannot think and throw their hands in the air whenever a problem arises.
If you are hungry, you can have a hamburger, trouble free, no thought required in about 30 seconds from the Macdonalds drive through. Many "operators" think the same applies to their machines.

 

[kat09]

Been there, done that with the emer.flap. Had to walk people through it over the phone to save a trip to the job. One time got a call, 6V53 in a grove wouldnt run, EVEN WITH ETHER! Had them check the flap, it was o.k..Had to go to job to look at it. They got wormy waiting an decided to change fuel filters,I saw them on the ground. This was one of the few times something actually broke, blower drive gave up.

 

[Former Wrench]

In the 1970"s I was mechanicing and welding at a logging camp in SE Alaska. One of the other mechanic had rebuilt an 8V-71 to be installed in a truck. It was ready to go and sitting on the shop floor for a start up test. The thing would not fire. The shop foreman and others did all sorts of things, including re-plumbing the fuel filter system and using an electric fuel pump as a by-pass. Finally after a day, they took off the emergency shut down housing and found that the shop that had rebuilt the blower had cut a piece of cardboard to cover the intake during shipment. No air, no run. The fuel system got hooked up correctly and the thing fired off with no further problems.

 

[kshansen]

One more story from me, this one is a bit shorter. I was sent to another one of our plants to install new batteries I was told to pick up on my way. When I got there they had the old ones out sitting on the tracks of the D6D Cat. I cleaned up the cable ends, actually surprised how good they looked, and wire brushed all the hardware for the hold downs and coated threads with anti-seize. Got batteries installed and hooked up figured job was all but done. Turned key to start position and click! Not even an attempt to crank. Tried a couple more times, just nice solid click. Jumpered the big terminals and starter motor spins fast. just will not crank when solenoid pulls it in. If it was my own I would strip the solenoid and see if it could be fixed by cleaning contacts and flipping the disc but this machine gets passed around like a cheap........, well you know what I mean and I don't want to be they guy people point to and says "but Ken said it was fixed". So I was back there again this morning with a rebuilt starter. 3306 cranks over nice a sweet now. Sometimes it pays to have a mechanic check things before you throw money at things, but I get paid to do the job twice so I guess I made out okay.

 

[RZucker]

Been there, done that with the emer.flap. Had to walk people through it over the phone to save a trip to the job. One time got a call, 6V53 in a grove wouldnt run, EVEN WITH ETHER! Had them check the flap, it was o.k..Had to go to job to look at it. They got wormy waiting an decided to change fuel filters,I saw them on the ground. This was one of the few times something actually broke, blower drive gave up.

Ah, yes the infamous Detroit Diesel blower drive. Anybody ever notice its always the blower end that strips out? Especially on a V12 and you get to pull BOTH blowers to fix it. Ug.

 

[lantraxco]

Back when I was turning wrenches for a construction outfit I spent a chunk of coin on a top of the line battery load tester, in those days a good carbon pile. Got the speech about wasting money on expensive tools that would only get used once a year. Heck, it paid for itself within three or four months, since the other mechanics would always replace batteries first, then the starter, and sometimes throw in an alternator for good measure! Was good for finding the failed battery in an installed batch of three or four brand new ones from our vendor also!

Not to ramble on, but a load tester is great for finding bad connections or weak cables. After testing the batteries to see if they are up to snuff, connect the load tester at the starter! Load her down and look for smoke or glowing red spots between the batteries and the starter solenoid and ground studs! Works like a charm, lol. Cheers.

 

[old-iron-habit]

Here's a 4-53 one that floored me for a bit. A couple years ago my 666D Ranger skidder just idled done on the way to the landing and stopped, just sat at a low idle and smoked white. Would not idle fast enough to engage the torque to baby it out of the woods. Had new air filters in it, only a week old, running in clean snow. Pulled the filters and they were clean. I called the engine shop that had rebuilt the engine for me a couple years earlier. He figured the blower drive had stripped, although he mentioned that he was sure he had replaced it with the new style steel drive gear. Took the blower of and all was good. Put it back on and still would not run. Took the waste gate off and started it and it idled perfect. Pushed me again toward the intake system blocked. Turns out a pack of kangaroo mice crawled in thru the bottom of the pre cleaner and built a nest in the air intake tube before the filter. It must have come loose and flew in and plugged solid at a elbow before the filters. If I had been smart enough to try it with the air cleaner end cover off it would have saved me a lot of walking back and forth down a hundred yard skid trail caring tools. Live and learn.

 

[Delmer]

the other mechanics would always replace batteries first, then the starter, and sometimes throw in an alternator for good measure!

But then you'd have a new starter and batteries, so then you'd know for sure if it's the alternator that's keeping it from starting. :falldownlaugh

 

[lantraxco]

But then you'd have a new starter and batteries, so then you'd know for sure if it's the alternator that's keeping it from starting. :falldownlaugh

Naw, in that case it was the series-parallel switch! Those guys never did figure that system out, LOL!

 

[kshansen]

Naw, in that case it was the series-parallel switch! Those guys never did figure that system out, LOL!

The infamous "Serious Problem Switch" was fun how a small broken or corroded wire on them could let one pair of the batteries go dead. I believe some where on a shelf at work there is a new/rebuilt one of them sitting. Last old Mack we had that used one I converted to straight 12 volt starting and never looked back:drinkup

 

[kshansen]

Turns out a pack of kangaroo mice crawled in thru the bottom of the pre cleaner and built a nest in the air intake tube before the filter. It must have come loose and flew in and plugged solid at a elbow before the filters. If I had been smart enough to try it with the air cleaner end cover off it would have saved me a lot of walking back and forth down a hundred yard skid trail caring tools. Live and learn.

That one reminds me of a problem one of the guys at work had while servicing and old B model Mack many years ago. He had removed the air filter and wanted to blow out the housing so he stuffed a rag in the intake pipe. After blowing it out he put in new filter. Then when he tried to start truck it would not start. That's when he remembered the rag in the intake Pulled the intake manifold off and proceeded to pull bits of rags out of the heads. Still would not start:beatsme Then at some point it was noticed that no smoke was coming from the exhaust, that did not make sense:beatsme Turns out the truck had run out of fuel just as it was pulled in the shop:Banghead Dumped fuel in tank and primed filters and it started right up! NOt sure if it had not run out of fuel if that old engine would have managed to chew up and spit that rag out when it started or if valves would have been held open enough to get bent.

 

[CraneInnovation]

But then you'd have a new starter and batteries, so then you'd know for sure if it's the alternator that's keeping it from starting. :falldownlaugh

That's exactly what the boneheads who worked on my car did a few months ago. Car wouldn't start 50 mins from home (out of the blue) so I had AAA give it a free tow to the local shop. I was so freaking busy I didn't have time to sort it out myself. They said starter and battery were bad. My eyebrows went up but I picked it up. Next day....dead. No life at all. Back to the shop. Now they said the new starter had a bad solenoid. I had brought the starter to them (another store had one in stock and PB's didn't) so I go down to the shop to pick it up and get it warrantied at the other place. I get there early....they say they're still taking it out of the car. "Wait, you tested it and found it was bad without taking it out of the car?" "Yep, we can do that" (with real sarcasm). Thinks I'm an idiot....but I know exactly what's about to happen. Take the starter to VIP, "test this for me". Perfectly fine and I get a copy of the test to take back to Pep Boys.

I put the starter on the counter and say "This one tested just fine." and shut my mouth. My prey (the service manager) gave me some condescending line about how their diagnostics showed the solenoid on it was bad and their guy knows what he's doing. So I let him have it.

"Listen, I have the entire control system for a 20 ton excavator apart over in Hudson. There is nothing about the starting system on this car that is a mystery to me. The only reason it is here is that I don't have the time or space to work on it here (I live in an Apt.). Now, you've spent 300 of my dollars replacing a battery and starter that were probably both perfectly fine, and now you want to replace this one too. Not gonna happen. This is clearly an issue with a relay, ground, or the ignition switch, and you need to have your guy find it and fix it and I'm not paying another dollar for it. You cannot diagnose electronics without thoroughly testing every part of the system and replacing only the one part that is definitively bad. This is basic vehicle electronics here."

The look I got was priceless :falldownlaugh

Got a call a half hour later. Ground was bad. Got the labor money back. Freaking morons.....that's the last time I let anyone else's mitts into my vehicle regardless of how busy I am.

 

[caterpillarmech]

My favorite is still my wife. She calls. Truck wont start. I have checked battery , starter and alternator in the drive and she says it just keeps having sporadic starting issues. So I tell her to hit it with a hammer. My wife knows I am a some what educated mechanic. I work on the latest and greatest diesel engines. Her response was the best. She thought I was the dumbest man on the planet. She asks what all my fancy tools are for if all I do is drive around hitting machines with a hammer! I told her the skill is in knowing where to hit the hammer to make it work!

 

[FSERVICE]

like the story goes " itll cost 1 million to fix that" customer says" but the part is only $100000," mechanic says "yes but u have to know where to put that part" lol

 

[oldtom]

That one reminds me of a problem one of the guys at work had while servicing and old B model Mack many years ago. He had removed the air filter and wanted to blow out the housing so he stuffed a rag in the intake pipe. After blowing it out he put in new filter. Then when he tried to start truck it would not start. That's when he remembered the rag in the intake Pulled the intake manifold off and proceeded to pull bits of rags out of the heads. Still would not start:beatsme Then at some point it was noticed that no smoke was coming from the exhaust, that did not make sense:beatsme Turns out the truck had run out of fuel just as it was pulled in the shop:Banghead Dumped fuel in tank and primed filters and it started right up! NOt sure if it had not run out of fuel if that old engine would have managed to chew up and spit that rag out when it started or if valves would have been held open enough to get bent.

well kshansen at one time back in the 86 had Mack p/m water truck pull up under stand pipe to fill with water,well driver go's for coffee, get something else to do ,well change of shift new driver comes along truck not start call workshop well I was the l/h that the time sent new mechanic over to start truck,and went off doing what ever it was had been doing well 3day later,the foreman asks what wrong with the Mack just need AIR so walk over and the new man has pull the fuel pump and injectors .you ffff wit. go get tool refit pump 6 injector get air line pull in to q/r fitting push in silver knob on dash and the doggy gos RRuuush and sits there idling.